| The Charmed Life of Pastors |
| Saturday, 21 April 2007 | |
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My friend Lyn linked to an article written by Rev. Dr. Dan Chun, who is the pastor of First Presbyterian Church of Honolulu, and the co-founder of Hawaiian Islands Ministries. The article was written for the Honolulu Advertiser, and gives statistics and insights into the lives of pastors. Here are some of the gory details:
These statistics break my heart, and frankly touch a nerve. I've experienced a number of things as a pastor that are as shocking as any horror movie. There's no doubt that pastors screw up. Most people reading this will no doubt have memories that readily come to mind of pastors that have hurt them deeply. However, I believe that most pastors love Jesus deeply, are trying their best, and are slowly drowning. I'd like to see people love their pastors more; give them and their family more grace; and not expect them to be the second coming of Christ. That said, I think that these types of statistics point to a systemic problem that isn't going to be fixed by more of the same. It's time for us to look long and deep at how and why we've gotten to where we are, and what we can do to move a head. Whether you're a pastor or not, I am very interested in what you think about the above. For the rest of Rev. Chun's article, see here. Set as favorite Bookmark
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Comments (52)
 
JJ, this would be a great topic for a book on missional studies. I agree with you that it is a systematic problem. Much of what we learn in seminary sets the stage for our own ministerial demise; I am convinced of that. God never intended Christianity to be a one-man-band, but that is what we have made it and, sadly, what we have come to expect from our leadership. I think some of the gross moral failures of many of the mega-church leaders stems from this problem. The tilt signs simply come up and the game is over. We are all human. No one can maintain the moral stature we require of leaders. The greater the pressure, stress and demand, the harder we fall. Some may fall harder, or at least more publically, than others, but that breaking point exists for everyone at some point, in one way or another.
Does it have to be that way? I don't think so. The very nature of missional Christianity spreads the ministry duties equally throughout the community and beyond. It creates an ever-expanding mission rather than funneling people in to one room where they expect to be entertained, edified and blessed by a handful of volunteers, who themselves place the ultimate burden of responsibility on their pastor. True missional, by its very nature, cannot create, nor can it prosper in such a top-down power structure. 1 report abuse
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April 21, 2007
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Wow, John, this is really depressing and should alarm people. javascript:void(0); I agree some of these statistics could be because the pastors are not supported and loved, but instead put on a pedestal and critiqued to a higher level of standard. I think many pastors do feel alone because they don’t have anyone they can truly confide in for support, and they know that everything they do or say will not remain private.
Thank you for posting this. We need to become aware so we can make changes in the way we provide for and perceive our pastors. 2 report abuse
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April 21, 2007
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Good post. Found it by way of another pastor's blog.
 I will tell you of another side of the problem. That of image. We had been in a church that had it's prime concern to be that of image. It came from the pastor on down. We were part of it and caught up in it. Realizing the problem is not a solution, however. Well, for us it was. But, unfortunately, they don't want to change. There are sometimes those who get power and that is what they wanted in the first place. They act much like the Pharisees that Jesus talked to so many years ago. Sometimes they can't even see what they are doing. I wish their eyes would open. I am glad that people are out there, who don't think they are above reproach. It sometimes has to start with the leader. But then the congregation has to be supportive as well. Sometimes the pastor is the one who needs to find another pasture. Sad either way. For some, it all comes down to how we look, instead of living out what we've been given. Hope that gives you another view. I like your site. I think I'll stop back.  3 report abuse
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April 21, 2007
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If you're a spiritual leader of any sort for a community you have a strong chance that people will have unrealistic expectations of you. The best Christian leaders are probably those who try to be like Jesus, but make it perfectly clear that they aren't Jesus, but are human with all that entails. Of course, that still won't stop some people expecting you to BE Jesus for them.
Teachings on forgiveness might be important here.  BB Mike 4 report abuse
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April 21, 2007
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The statistics don't really surprise me... Sadly, I've seen too many of these problems show up in churches myself.
Most of the pastors I've known, even those that failed or quit, were truly trying to do their best for God. The problem is the position of the pastor, not the person of the pastor. That's just too much responsibility and burden for any one person to carry. Jesus never intended it to be that way. We can't blame the pastors. No single person could ever be good at all of the things a pastor is expected to do. Sooner or later, we all fail... It's time to move away from churches that are run by a single pastor, and towards "church" the way Jesus intended it, where we all help carry the loads of each other. 5 report abuse
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April 21, 2007
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As a pastor
 for what feels like the whole of my life (10 years) I can understand these stats and reflections. Actually, a lot of these things might have their comparable stats for leaders in any kind of organisation - without the expectations of actually being Jesus I think that a high proportion of leaders have missional ideals, but have found them not to work with the people that they've come alongside. This is especially the case in trad church. So they try and slowly change the system from within. Win the arguments so that the hearts will change, followed by the action. Can it work this way. It is maybe not impossible, but, I think in reality you may move a few, but will have missed out on really steaming ahead with those who have the heart. I'll never forget sitting in a small group with Jackie Pullinger. She said it can take over 10 years to change the hearts of christians to be kingdom orientated - that was far too long for her - she advocated finding not yet christians who were already kingdom orientated and working with them.  Now that's smart.6 report abuse
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April 21, 2007
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John,
I did not have time to read all of the comments. Someone probably brought this up already, but if not, it needs to be said... Could it be that thinking of pastoring as a "job" or "career" is the systemic problem? -Alan 7 report abuse
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April 21, 2007
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Webb,
I also agree seminary doesn't prepare pastor's for ministry. Actually, those who don't go to seminary do every bit as well at least. Yet I still believe in seminary education. I just think it needs to be reimagined in the same way that church does. I'm interested in your thoughts about missional churches doing better with leadership. I've observed two main things with missional churches: 1. People recognize a main leader even if that person doesn't call him or herself "the pastor". 2. People can be flaky. They don't contribute, leave the work to a few people just like in every other church, and are there because they're pissed off with traditional church or whatever. I'm not saying all missional churches are like this. But I've observed both. I think we're still emerging to a healthier model in this regard in the emerging missional church as well. If you have any thoughts or reactions I'd appreciate them. 8 report abuse
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April 21, 2007
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Kayak Angel,
I agree. We should be alarmed. There are thousands of pastors suffering greatly, and are normally very isolated. Recognizing what's going on is definitely a needed first step. Thanks for caring 9 report abuse
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April 21, 2007
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Roland,
Thanks for stopping by. I cracked up at that picture of Ronald Reagan you had on your blog. Pastors definitely aren't perfect, and they certainly aren't beyond reproach. But with the power thing, or perhaps even the image thing, I think those are often walls people put up to protect themselves from all of the hurt they've experienced. Other times its simply narcissistic behavior. And I'm not excusing any of it. Just saying its helpful to get the "why" behind people's actions. Please do stop by again  10 report abuse
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April 21, 2007
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Mike,
Helpful thoughts. Do you think Pagans have high and unrealistic expectations for leaders as well? 11 report abuse
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April 21, 2007
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Rainer,
Good thoughts. I think there is some healthy movement towards churches that take a team approach in everything--not just leadership. But I think we're still going to have to deal with the one-man-show baggage for quite some time. We've created this mess. I'm sure you'd agree it is simply not as simple as saying "everyone has the responsibility and right to contribute". Frankly, most people don't want to contribute. Whatcha think? 12 report abuse
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April 21, 2007
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Jon,
With you I've struggled in trad church trying to help people move in a missional direction,and also have found that a small percentage is willing to move. With most, it is like trying to move a house. You can push and push and push, but you're only going to wind up sore and burnt out, and the house would have hardly noticed  I think Jackie's advice was wise indeed--but easier said than done! 13 report abuse
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April 21, 2007
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Alan,
I'm glad you raised that. I do think this is at least a significant core of the problem. The really tough part, is that this thinking is ingrained in our thinking and expectations. Any thoughts on the way forward with this? 14 report abuse
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April 21, 2007
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glad to see this is getting some dialogue. it's the nature of the beast. whenever you make a distinction between clergy and laity, you have a built-in antagonism. projections go both ways...from clergy onto the congregation and vice versa. the problem is with the institutional system, and no amount of tinkering or tweaking will solve the inherent problems. it's time to start asking better questions.
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April 21, 2007
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I think Alan has at least a portion of the problem. But I think it's more systemic than that.
If you look at any given church and begin to assess the flaws inherent in that system, it's not just the pastor, or just the congregation. It's our entire church culture which has become unhealthy and enmeshed with each other. The pastors graduate from seminary trained for something other than what is expected of them when they arrive at their assignment. John, I think your graphic is an excellent pictogram for the whole thing! It's not just a sinking ship, there's nothing but bones left ...  16 report abuse
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April 21, 2007
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John, I think these are important issues to be addressed before an missional community gets too far off the ground. Ideally there is an incarnational, missional vision deployed at the onset which the group works together on as its primary focus and function. If not, it is all too easy to fall back into the same problems that we're trying to escape. There will always be those who come on board who are looking for something other than church as usual, but who have little grasp of what it means to be missional. That is one reason why I am not too optimistic of of most missional endeavors. Proverbs tells us that people perish for lack of vision. If not built on a firm agenda, the ship will break loose from its moorings and drift wherever the wind and tide takes it.
Missional leadership, I believe, must be very willing to let go of authoritative control, being more of an equipper, encourager and one who delegates the roles of others according to their passion and gifts. A missional church, once up and running should never be dependent on its leaders. They should be able to walk away with no repercussions whatsoever. That is the mark of a solid, wise leader in my estimation. 17 report abuse
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April 21, 2007
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'Do you think Pagans have high and unrealistic expectations for leaders as well?'
Most definitely. In some ways I don't think it is such a bad thing to have those as goals to aspire to. But for that to be expected and for someone to miss the bar and be slated because of it with no consideration for their attempts to even try to reach it.... well it's just plain unrealistic and unjust. I've seen Pagan leaders go through burn out too. Hospitalisation through over-work and stress is, perhaps a little less frequent because I suspect it is a little easier for Pagan leaders to fade into the background. But if you're dedicated to what you're doing and people keep on piling the expectations and workload on then it can be hard to see the fall coming. I suspect that might be a similar situation with Christian pastors. Of course the politics (keeping in with the right crowd, be that denominational or hierarchical Pagan path) is an additional burden. There is a Taoist approach to leadership that I quite appreciate whereby you lead from behind, flowing with how things are going and only adding a nudge in the right direction. But I spent quite a few years studying Tai Chi. So it's probably not surprising that I see the merits in that. I can see how that might work to a certain extent in a Christian context. But there's always that important thing of accountability to consider. That might be a challenge to overcome. BB Mike 18 report abuse
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April 21, 2007
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former pw,
I also see this as the nature of the beast. But most people will continue to be a part of the system for quite some time. We need to care for them, while as you've said, ask better questions. For what it's worth, we also need to care for people who are part of exploring new ways of being Jesus-followers. Its at least as hard for these people, just in different ways. 19 report abuse
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April 21, 2007
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Sonja,
Who was the dummy who raised this depressing topic? Oops, it was me, wasn't it? I'm with you, I think we are getting it largely wrong from the ground up. 20 report abuse
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April 21, 2007
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Webb,
I agree with your thoughts on missional leadership. But I'm finding this to be easier in theory than practice. There needs to be people who are leading by taking the initiative to come up with vision in the first place, making sure it doesn't fall into a traditional church pattern, etc. Also, I'm finding most people struggle with being asked to participate in the vision from the start. These are tough issues that I'm not finding people discuss enough. The theory is one thing, finding solid answers to transitioning--not only oneself--but others from traditional ways of thinking to missional is virgin territory. 21 report abuse
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April 21, 2007
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Mike,
Thanks for your additional thoughts on the topic of leadership, and for sharing about this in a Pagan context. 22 report abuse
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April 21, 2007
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I agree with what Sonja is saying - that its something to do with the model of church that we are working with.
As a Vicar in an established Church, I'm acutely aware that there are a whole series of expectations that 'should' be fulfilled - but there is no real way that those expectations can be fulfilled in reality. At least not by a human being! So long as we treat clergy as more or less a race apart, the weight of expectation will crush many. We are constantly put onto a pedestal from which we are almost inevitably going to fall. I've got people in my church that refuse to call me by my Christian name! Somehow we need a remimagining of what it actually means to be a 'pastor' or a 'vicar' - which throws us back onto reimagining what 'church' is... 23 report abuse
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April 21, 2007
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Paul W,
It's definitely the model of church, though a significant part of that--particularly with our dominant current model--revolves around the nature and expectations of leadership, So I agree we need to reimagine leadership desperately. 24 report abuse
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April 21, 2007
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I like what Mike said about the Tao 'from behind' thing. That resonates well with the missional agenda too. But...John Boy, you are so right about easier-said-than-done. We're at a tough point in this new paradigm--not much out there to lead us and we're all going to make some mistakes.
I think the reason our loosely knitted group is working is because we still haven't come to the point that we are calling it a church. There have been some distinct advantages, at least psychologically, from having it evolve out of an already existing (hate to use the term)para-church ministry. Heart to Hand Ministries never had any focus but the mission. Everything and everyone else naturally served the mission. Either you saw some way to contribute or there was nothing else there for you--no Sunday church services, etc. Either we drew people who wanted to help or we drew no one at all. But it is growing, quite organically, I might add, in ways we would have never expected. If we do one day come to the point where we have 'church' it will come on the back side of the real mission. I don't want to annoy anyone with what we do; I hate focusing on me, but I think that, though inadvertently, we have stumbled upon something of a model for missional community building. Yet when I consider how disorganized from a human perspective we are, it seems laughable to call it a model. But, in God's eyes, I think there is a lot more divine organization than perhaps any of us are aware of. The big thing, in keeping on track with the post topic, the leadership expectation and burnout problem is virtually nonexistent for us at this juncture. There is very little actual accountability, but there is very little reason for it. Someday I'll be better able to explain what we do, but the best I can describe it now is that it is like one giant, bulging and expanding blob that is accomplishing much because no one has realized yet that we can't logically do what we're doing. :/ Yeah, I AM insane. 25 report abuse
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April 21, 2007
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Good post John.
A very good friend of mine - Randall Friesen - posted a very similar comment on his blog last week, citing Todd Rhoades and some chilling personal experiences. His conclusion - something is badly broken in the way pastoring is traditionally done. http://randallfriesen.com/?p=10115 Jon's comment above about Jackie Pullinger is a key one. I grew up in a traditional baptist church, and it was all about internal politics and maintainence: maintain the building, maintain the equilibrium at an unintrusive level. God forbid that He should get involved. To me, there is something utterly stupid about trying to build Gods kingdom based on the typical model. The leaders don't have real authority and the people get mixed messages about who to follow and what their role is. There are too many things fundamentally wrong with the whole system that I just haven't the patience to even start writing them down. Leadership should come from within a church, or if it MUST arrive from outside, needs to be part of the church instead of over it. It needs to be plural and enabling instead of exclusive and separating. It should be based on calling and gifting, rather than qualification and training, with a foundation of maturity of character instead of experience. Sorry to rant. 26 report abuse
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April 21, 2007
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FWIW I don't believe a 'pastor' should go to seminary - at least not until they have been functioning in their calling for a significant time. Just touching on Sonia's point.
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April 21, 2007
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I'm definitely in the 45% that burned out, but I hope this won't last forever.
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April 21, 2007
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I agree, most pastors are sincere, and most make huge sacrifices. Usually, they could make money doing something else. Usually, their family suffers from the demands upon their pastor husband/dad and from the expectations on them as a pastor’s family. Usually, they have a high frustration level, having a vision way beyond that of their congregants. Usually, they suffer stress from trying to please people that have a myriad of varying expectations. Usually, they don’t feel very successful because they are inundated with stories from the mega churches.
I also wonder what a pastor brings on himself, as it were. Here I speak from my own experience. Pastors tend to love being needed and being the go-to-guy. It causes us to feel important and we like that we are helping people, but it can become a drug and an addiction. It follows that pastors tend to be poor delegators, which can hurt our families and our own souls from working way too much. Pastors tend to be smug, not accepting much advice that comes outside of their paradigm, their chosen leadership team, and their pastor colleagues. That leads to developing a less than accurate perception, making inadequate decisions, and simply, shutting out people who could help. I think that pastors tend to be poorly prepared with too much isolation, and too much emphasis on systematic theology and on the technical. Oft times, we can be very ill prepared for real world ministry, but arrogant about our “great learning.†When you consider the wide expression of missional churches and how it is developing so rapidly, it seems that pastoral training is lagging years behind the need. I read an idea from Brian McLaren, that pastoral training should be one part living in community ( So much is learned by living with other people and a having a real world job,) one part project (We learn more through studying, presenting, and discussing than by hearing,) and one part internship (We learn by doing with others who have learned by doing.) 29 report abuse
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April 21, 2007
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Webb,
Sounds like a God thing to me You should consider blogging a lot more about the ins and outs of what you guys do. We need more practical looks into missional ministries.30 report abuse
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April 21, 2007
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Toni,
Thanks for the link to the article. It looks like he was quoting in part from the article I quoted from and part from another. In the other, I was very surprised to see 40% of pastors have considered leaving the ministry in the last 3 months. Yours points are well taken. We're living in a mad situation. I think we're seeing the beginnings of a movement of people saying the emperor has no clothes on. But I think it's important to care for people in the transition. 31 report abuse
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April 21, 2007
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Toni,
I think that's a great idea about pastor's waiting for quite some time before going to seminary if they're going to go. It would create some practical time problems, but would be worth it. 32 report abuse
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April 21, 2007
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Adam G.,
I hope so too my friend. I must say that's been part of my experience for years--burn out that is. One of the main reasons why I'm taking my involvement much slower this time around. 33 report abuse
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April 21, 2007
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Glenn,
Agreed overwhelmingly. But the finding other work deal is fairly tough in my experience. There's not a ton that translates work wise, at least enough that is going to pay the bills. Bi-vocational work as a model for pastors preferably should start when they're still in their 20's so they have ongoing experience. I like McLaren's thoughts. Thanks for raising them as well as your helpful ones. 34 report abuse
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April 21, 2007
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John, I think you should give Glen a gold star for his post.
That was great. I can really relate. When my life fell apart when I was 37--divorce, church split, etc.,--I had to do something else. I couldn't find something that fit, like a counseling job outside of Christendom, because no one liked my Christian background. One of the guys at my church had a trucking company and he taught me how to drive and helped me get my CDL. I soon bought my first rig and went into business for myself. I intended on eventually having several trucks, and going back to school to work on my M.Div., supported by the business. Of course that never happened. But, I did more counseling--God's way-on the road and with my employees than I ever did as a church leader. I learned the art of contextual, missional evangelism on-the-job. After my accident in 03, I lost just about everything, and I had to go to work full-time for another company until this year. That same friend who got me started in trucking is preparing to retire and made me an offer to buy into his trucking business. He and his wife run part of the time and I run the other part. I'm home 8-10 days and on the road 8-10 days. This works perfectly for working on our music tour and with the mission. My friend and his wife and Stacey and I are going to be taking turns going to Ukraine to work over there. And sharing our story with other drivers provides a great way to share Jesus with them. We never get any resistance and I think we might be just as effective while driving as we are with the mission work, maybe more so. I have another friend, a physician, who felt God was leading him to do medical missions in Honduras, but he had trouble finding the support needed. God led him to 2 other doctors with the same vision. They started their own practice and they now rotate in the mission while the other two pay the way back home. Again, this gives them an incredible witness in their home community. These are but two examples of how we can integrate ministry and work. I absolutely love what I am doing. I can't even imagine going back to traditional ministry. 35 report abuse
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April 22, 2007
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I like what Glenn has to say
. Lately I've been engaging at a centre for people with addictions in our community. I've learnt a lot about codependency and have since read a top selling book about it. All the way through I was thinking, wow that's most people I know in Church Leadership. Overall, I think the key to all of this is how church and mission relate to one another. If you plant a church that seeks to engage missionally then are you going to run into the same problems, because the church is the main thing and the mission flows from it. The leadership of the church is going to be complicated if it is inclusive and yet not domineering and controlling. HOWEVER if you engage in missional activity and let church be shaped out of what happens, the the leadership remains in the court of the mission, and the church can be as inclusive as you want, but it is secondary to the mission. I think this will allow the more gentle pastoring from behind described earlier. This is theoretical, and may be a load of garbage, maybe someone has some experience of this? If anyone understands what I'm saying? 36 report abuse
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April 22, 2007
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Webb,
How about we'll give Glenn two stars, one from you and one from me? If you're not reading Glenn's blog, btw, make sure and do so. Great stuff. I think in one of my last comments to you I said you should write more on your blog about what you guys do. Now I think I need to update that and say you need to write a book about your story and what you do! Both of those were very interesting stories about how you and your friend found bi-vocational work. Sadly I know lots of others including one of the commenters above, who have been struggling finding work. 37 report abuse
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April 22, 2007
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Jon,
I've been around a recovery ministry a lot lately too, and love what they do, and have personally got a lot out of it. What is the book you read if you don't mind me asking? With what you said about missional church and leadership, I have a lot to learn about this, but enough experience to say the theory is much clearer than the experience. I think the theory expects more of people than people want expected of them. I'd appreciate any feedback or thoughts on this. 38 report abuse
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April 22, 2007
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Codependent no more by Melody Beattie. Very interesting. It dissects so many levels of my life!
I too have gained far more from hanging out around the recovery ministry than I could ever put in. Our church heavily supports this ministry, it is Christian but they don't talk about Jesus in sessions. About 80% of clients get free. They work with all substance abuse, love and relationship addiction and with friends and family. I think this ministry could become a church. Not all the workers are christians yet, but some become christians. The director is an amazing Christian women. But then she has to give a load of time into our church too? As a quick thought before I retire for the night, I wonder what would happen if they were to focus entirely on their ministry at the addiction centre, and the christians who work there began to support and nurture one another there where they work - and not go to another church. I've done chaplaincy work in schools where I have come alongside people 'pastoring' and encouraging then, but not with any sense of control. Something similar could work at the addiction centre. There is real community there. EG last week current and past clients and staff all returned to say goodbye to a member of staff who was leaving. It was packed. They all stayed for group that afternoon. I had an interesting conversation with an addict who used to go to church but was discouraged from attending because he rode a motorbike and wore leathers  - I told him that there were churches set up for people who do that now, and described some of the changes happening on the church landscape now. It blew his mind! Anyway, there is a lot of church going on in their midst, and if it were to become more intentional there could be some excellent lessons learnt. I think the church has a lot to learn from recovery communities anyway.39 report abuse
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April 22, 2007
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Forgot to say. The main thing would be that the centre would remain the focus, i.e. the mission. The church would be much more ... organic ... for want of using a less clichéd term.
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April 22, 2007
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Appreciating that thred about the doctors rotating work so they can go to Honduras.
This post has touched a nerve John. What of those pastoring (or serving) as staff in specialist areas of church ministry - Director of Worship, Director of Children's Ministry, Youth Pastor.... My experience can be summed as this: entrusted with much, left to get on with it. Not party to leadership discussions or whole team meetings as you are the specialist in your area and to include you in whol team meetings would take up too much of your time. Of course there is support there - when you need it. But if you call on that support - phewy - are you sure you're functioning OK? If you raise your head above the parapet to suggest need for more communication and overlap in ministry areas - again - shouldn't you just stay focussed on your own area? When all is going well, no positive affirmation is made by some of your colleagues. When you make a mistake, or become too focussed on your specialised area - you need to learn to see "the Big Picture" and can be starkly reminded of what you should be doing/what you need to do/what others are doing. 41 report abuse
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April 22, 2007
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quite a list, and having recently suffered from depression I can truly relate- how sad an indictment on the expectations of churches that many pastors/ ministers end up in this state.
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April 22, 2007
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Jon,
I think it would be wise for the recovery group to be the church. The ministry I've been around, River City Ministries, sees itself as a ministry and not a church. But in reality it functions as a church. 43 report abuse
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April 22, 2007
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Hi Anon,
I think that the situation where "specialist" type pastors aren't allowed to be a part of the wider leadership team making decisions is, well, crap. I think it is important for people who are gifted in different areas to be able to focus on them, but I also think its important for them to contribute to the wider leadership discussion in the church. Thanks for raising this. 44 report abuse
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April 22, 2007
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Sally,
I hear you--and feel for you with what you've gone through. Something is clear broken and needs fixing. Though I fear its beyond fixing and needs replacing. 45 report abuse
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April 22, 2007
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Jon,
By the way, thanks again for the name of the book! 46 report abuse
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April 22, 2007
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John, Jon, and Webb,
Thank you all for sharing your stories and for the kind words. Now if I could just find my own next step. Actually, I am trying to begin something of a house church and we are trying to find our way there. Also, I am trying to break into community service/advocacy work. Jon, I was stricken by what you said and how it relates to my circumstances. I am definitely pondering these words. If you plant a church that seeks to engage missionally then are you going to run into the same problems, because the church is the main thing and the mission flows from it. The leadership of the church is going to be complicated if it is inclusive and yet not domineering and controlling. HOWEVER if you engage in missional activity and let church be shaped out of what happens, the the leadership remains in the court of the mission, and the church can be as inclusive as you want, but it is secondary to the mission." 47 report abuse
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April 22, 2007
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Glenn,
Webb's first name is John, which makes for a lot of Jo(h)n's. I hope you find your way with this. There's plenty of us on this crazy roller coaster. 48 report abuse
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April 22, 2007
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As a student pastor who is about to take on a new church role as a sole pastor this is very concerning.
 I'll let you know what my experiences are.49 report abuse
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April 24, 2007
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Geoff,
Please do. Where are you going to pastor? 50 report abuse
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April 24, 2007
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Chuns church owns a golf course and he is very rich.
51 report abuse
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May 13, 2007
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Ellie,
You can take the title of this post literally then in his case :- 52 report abuse
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May 13, 2007
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