| Spiritual Fighting |
| Tuesday, 26 December 2006 | |
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This is a subject that is easy to err on the side of excess or apathy on. I've especially been interested in this topic in relation to my research of Satanism and Paganism, and I've written on this in relation to evangelical and charismatic profiles of Satanism. It seems that spiritual warfare is spoken of in a variety of different contexts. It might have to do with:
I'm sure that you can think of other ways 'spiritual warfare' is used. However, most probably apply one or more of the above to their understanding of this subject. I agree with some of the listed, but struggle with aspects of others--especially the focus on occult practices as more "dangerous" than others. I understand spiritual warfare to be something that is defensive and offensive. Most practically it has to do with living a life that is consistent with the one Jesus has called me to. So, for example, if I'm living a godly life, a by-product of this involves resisting Satan. But let me ask you, how do you define 'spiritual warfare'? What does it mean to you? Do you tend to err on the side of excess or apathy?
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I dont know if I err, at least I am content with where I am at. I used to belong to a church where spiritual warfare was practiced in excess. It created a worldview where there where demons all around, where the world outside the church was evil and dangerous. While creating a clear storyline of good and evil, and a focus and collective identity in the church, I found that it also made God smaller and the enemy greater. For instance, I believe God is at work both in and outside the church, not only inside.
I believe the greatest kind of "spiritual warfare" is living the kind of life the sermon on the mount describe - love, generosity, reconsiliation, hope and dealing with demons whenever they manifests themselves. 1 report abuse
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December 27, 2006
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I shall try to be coherent.
I'm with Walter Wink on the question of what are "The Powers and Principalities". I think that they are largely our sinful nature gone wrong. I think that we get involved with such powers when we name what is Objectively Good in God's eyes with the name of "evil" (e.g. "Jesus is a messenger of Satan and heals in Satan's name") or when we name what is Objectively Evil in God's eyes with the name of "good" (e.g. "XYZ people must be eliminated from the face of the earth"). I suspect that I may be in the minority here, but I don't think the there is a "personal Satan" in the same way that there is a "personal God". Although I do believe that getting involved with "the powers and principalities" often results in evil taking over as if it has "a mind of its own". Maybe a better analogy is a tidal wave. I certainly think that once started, such evil can be difficult to stop. In consequence of these two beliefs, I think that "spiritual warfare" occurs between God and human beings. It's about our repentance and our turning to God. For those people who are not deeply caught up in an Evil undertaking, for us everyday Christians, I think that the best thing is simply for us to keep our eye on God. I don't believe that any sort of personal demon is going to sneak up on us whilst we're saying our prayers and possess us. But we also must be careful - as St. Paul warns - not to say "I am a Christian, therefore any behaviour is permitted for me." For those deeply caught up in Evil systems, then prayer is needed and also righteous prophetic behaviour on the part of believers. It is necessary for the righteous to name as "evil" the evil that is being done, possibly risking one's life in doing so, trying to stop the evil, and calling the participants to repentance. For me, that is what "spiritual warfare" is. Since I'm a pacifist (and since I think peace is at the heart of the Gospel), I think I'd rather call it "spiritual peacemaking"! 2 report abuse
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December 27, 2006
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First of all, WOW! When you haven't gotten out for awhile, it's always a delight to wander around again. Nice new digs. (changed the link, btw...thanks!)
Secondly, I feel like I swing the full gamut on this question. I was raised Methodist and spiritual warfare concerned who won the weekly softball game - us or the Catholics. I went from there to a charismatic church. One gal in our congregation believed there was a demon of falling at the bottom of her stairs because she had tripped and fallen down them so many times. (Sadly, I'm serious) From there we slid into Reformed theology. As we have gone through all these changes in our spiritual walk, my understanding of God the Father, Most High, has changed as well. Until we stepped outside the charismatic realm, I had no clue that God was bigger than Satan. Even though they gave lip service to that, the fear and self-flagellation that occurred in spiritual warfare, led me to believe otherwise. At this point, I would say I'm aware, but cautious to point a finger and call something spiritual warfare. More often, I'm suspicious of my own flesh leading me into sin, rather than the devil making me do it. And always, anymore, the first line of "defense" to me is a contrite heart and a drawing near to Father - from there I will respond, as I feel the Holy Spirit leading/directing. 3 report abuse
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December 27, 2006
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Until we stepped outside the charismatic realm, I had no clue that God was bigger than Satan.
Can I just say that the above is an incredibly important theological statement? I have never been involved with a charismatic church (that's about the only form of Christianity I've *not* been involved with!), but I've certainly seen people who are treating the realm of evil as if it's powers were almost equal to God, which is of course, not the case at all. Trusting in the Sovereignty of God is theologically very important. (If I may say so as someone who is NOT reformed.  )4 report abuse
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December 27, 2006
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I believe that where we get into trouble is when we fail to realize that satan makes good use of anything he chooses to do ill. For example, rationalism in its atheistic form denies any kind of supernaturalism, God's or other. Yet it has infiltrated the western church, in particular, to the point where the church has not only lost site of the struggle against evil, but of the power of God as well.
Of course there is a fine line between personal sin and evil supernatural forces. The supernatural does exist. I nearly lost my life and did lose nearly everything else when wrestling with those powers 15 to 20 years ago. There was no way anyone could rationalize away what I went through, nor could they deny what happened to me. But, I learned the hard way that satan is the prince of this world and is indeed very powerful. That is not to say that God is not more powerful, but neither does God take the struggle as lightly as most Christians do, including Charismatics and Pentecostals who are accused of extremism. It also doesn't take into consideration the fact that the human spirit, with its God-given free-will, ultimately has been given the right to succumb to as much demonic influence as it chooses, regardless of how much authority we have over the demonic realm. Christians can't cast out the human spirit. This is an evil world we live in. 64,000 people starve to death every day, 30,000 of them as children. I'm not certain what the toll is for drug and alcohol abuse, murder, abortions, man-made environmental and ecological disasters, drunk driving, etc. And that is all but a drop in the bucket of all the evil that is perpetrated daily. Yes, much of this is sin-induced and it could be argued that satan had nothing to do with it. But did God stop it? Only in a few sovereign instances does he intervene. His goal for mankind is that all would seek and find his love and salvation, and that they would work together to build his kingdom on Earth until He returns--which includes working to stop the effects of the principalities and powers of on society. His unconditional love makes it necessary for him to grant us the free-will to choose to receive it or not to. Otherwise, his love would be conditional. That's where the problem comes in, yet it is the all-important element of true redemption and one that is circumvented to one degree or another by Christians all the time. To deny that satan and demons have anything to do with evil is to deny the words of Jesus himself. Yet, few of us have the stamina to face frontal encounters with evil. I pleaded with God to take that calling away from me because it was killing me. He answered my prayers. Yet, since then, I have learned that by living to extend the unconditional love, mercy, grace, forgiveness, peace and reconciliation to those whom I meet, regardless of how good or evil they might be, is a more powerful, or at least, a more effective form of spiritual warfare than the full frontal assault variety. What's more, it takes away the tendency for me to demonize those who are caught up in demonic deception. True unconditional love is something that we all long for and people will give up just about anything to be rescued by it. Once people see that they have a choice, it is much easier for them to exercise their free-will to come out from their demonic captivity. Even the demon-possessed man who came out from the tombs when he saw the Lord, chose to escape his satanic bondage. Didn't mean to go on a rant here, but it is something that has caused me much pain and I am therefor very impassioned about how I have learned to deal with it. 5 report abuse
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December 27, 2006
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To me, true spiritual warfare consists in declaring the dominion of God through sharing the Good News. We do this by telling others about Christ's life, death and resurrection in terms of what it means for all of us. In post-modern times I'd say it's especially important to tell our personal story of God's working in our lives, and listen to what others have to say about how they perceive God and His word. When we share the Good News, the dominion of God is proclaimed against anything that might claim allegiance over that part of creation instead of God. This can create opposition. Prayer and fasting are fundamental, and the Word of God provides the "weapon" for our warfare. The Spirit of God gives power to what we do.
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December 27, 2006
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Pastor Astor,
Great comment. I agree with you about the greatest form of 'spiritual warfare'--I really would like a better term--being living a sermon on the mount kind of life. 7 report abuse
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December 27, 2006
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My views were not intended to cause anyone distress and the original post did ask what people thought. I don't quite know how to deal with someone's "after the fact distress". Had this been designated as a "safe space for those who have undergone demonic possession", I would not have presented my views, but it was not.
There is a huge difference between not believing something and actively denying it. Also, to infer or suggest that I'm a sceptic about all things "supernatural" (and that's a term that is fraught in itself) is also incorrect. I won't say any more here. 8 report abuse
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December 27, 2006
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Hi Pam,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I thought that Wink saw the Powers as impersonal spiritual realities revolving around institutions or nations? Or is this what you meant by them being our sinful natures gone wrong? I greatly appreciate what you say about the need to stand against Evil systems. But I think that (1) virtually everyone is caught up in these to a greater or less extent and (2) there is a literal personal spiritual evil that interacts with virtually every area of life. 9 report abuse
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December 27, 2006
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Hi Dawn,
Thanks for the feedback. I'm still not sure what I think of the new blog look. And I guess it shouldn't matter that much, but I spend time here each day, so I might as well like it  Thanks for the link as well. I've been around very different contexts on this as well. I think I was always suspicious of the hyper-demons-are-everywhere stuff. But it's probably easier for me to lean to the other side. 10 report abuse
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December 27, 2006
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Pam,
I agree that it's very important to stay away from the satan is almost as powerful as God stuff. I think that some segments of the church come close to falling into dualism, or the belief that God and Satan are two opposite but opposing deities fighting it out. 11 report abuse
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December 27, 2006
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Webb,
Thanks for sharing. It sounds like there is a lot more going on behind what you were saying from your personal life. You should consider putting up a post, or even a series on that on your blog. 12 report abuse
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December 27, 2006
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Adam,
Thanks for your comment. I'm with you that it's good to share with others what God has done in our life. But I'm not sure I'm completely following your thoughts on spiritual warfare as talking. For example, you wrote "When we share the Good News, the dominion of God is proclaimed against anything that might claim allegiance over that part of creation instead of God." Why is this spiritual warfare for you, and how does it practically change things? Thanks for helping me understand where you're coming from further. 13 report abuse
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December 27, 2006
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Hi Pam,
I missed your earlier comment somehow. I'm not sure what you felt was aimed at you, unless it was one of the thing's in Webb's post? Please don't feel that you can't share your views here. I feel very strongly that this should be a safe space for people to share their thoughts, agree, disagree, or whatever. I think the most mature human relationships are those where people can openly disagree, without being disagreeable. 14 report abuse
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December 27, 2006
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Pam, please don't take my thoughts as an attack on your own. I never intended it to be that way. I was merely telling my own story.
There is a lot in what you had to say. You said"[Although I do believe that getting involved with "the powers and principalities" often results in evil taking over as if it has "a mind of its own". Maybe a better analogy is a tidal wave. I certainly think that once started, such evil can be difficult to stop.] Pam, I couldn't agree more. No one can say they have a handle on this topic. Satan is the author of chaos and it seems that any time this subject comes up, there is plenty of it. If we learn at all, we learn from our mistakes--one of the reasons for the name of my blog--Stumbling into the Kingdom. That's me. My wife calls me a spiritual bull in a china closet. 15 report abuse
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December 27, 2006
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One of the other ways in which spiritual warfare has been spoken of here in Salem is in respect to the releasing revival, and the hindrances to that revival. Taking our cities for God tends ot be thought of as a matter of overcoming a territorial spirit. In some ways this may be the issue of spiritual warfare which troubles me most.
This kind of spiritual warfare has caused the churches in Salem who practice it appear to be against te very city itself. Our insistence to remove ourselves from that kind of prayer, and its accompanying language has given us favor with the city. I suppose there is the question of what it means to "take our cities for God." I'm not sure I'm following John Dawson's suggestions. 16 report abuse
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December 27, 2006
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I've lost touch with John Dawson although we communicated a bit back in the day. But, I'm sure that his views have changed as well. I do think he had some valuable insight, but so much has changed--we're so much more politically sensitive now, and rightly so, because our views are a lot more visible to society today than they were back in the late 80s and early 90s. It is so much easier to misunderstood today. I do remember John as being very sensitive and loving to people regardless of their spirituality and I'm sure he would have meant no harm.
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December 27, 2006
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Lots of great comments. I am in flux about what I think "spiritual warfare" entails. I have friends who spend more time commanding Evil/Satan to stop this or that or the other than simply communing with God.
Having spent almost 20 years in a church tradition (The Vineyard) which made spiritual warfare a high priority, I've kinda decided that there are some who may feel strongly (meaning a physical sensation as well as a 'gut' feeling) that evil is near and have the ability (gifting?) to deal appropriately with it. Others (like myself) are absolutely freaked out by those folks....although I consider myself a very sensitive person (in good and bad ways). I cannot see horror films, visit haunted houses, be alone in the dark, etc. I don't feel safe or whatever, so I suppose I believe in an evil presence, but you won't catch me talking to it. My spiritual warfare consists of A) ignoring it or B) hiding under my covers. Every once in awhile I might talk to God about it, but to say it out loud sorta scares me too... 18 report abuse
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December 28, 2006
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Phil,
I'm with you on that one. Sadly, I think that when we "fight" in that manner we simply isolate ourselves further, build walls, and give the impression that we think we're better than others. That said, I think that those who engage in this form of "warfare" do so with the best of intentions. I applaud the motives, but think we need to move past confrontational, isolationist, and non-relational forms of living. 19 report abuse
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December 28, 2006
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Cindy,
Well, talking about it "out loud" here is a great step I do think there's a balance with this subject, it's just so hard to practice it. I think that the more we talk about it in a productive way, like here, the better. Thanks again for sharing. 20 report abuse
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December 28, 2006
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(I'm trying out this software's formatting. I hope it works, since there is no review option.)
Webb said: Pam, please don't take my thoughts as an attack on your own. I never intended it to be that way. I was merely telling my own story.[/i/ Webb, I didn't take your post as an attack on mine; I just don't like distressing people and I'd had the impression that you were saying that I'd distressed you. Also, I wrote badly; it was only my intention to say that I'd refrain from further participation in this thread. If I don’t need to refrain from commenting, then I would then like to answer one of John's questions to me. John said "I thought that Wink saw the Powers as impersonal spiritual realities revolving around institutions or nations? Or is this what you meant by them being our sinful natures gone wrong?" Pam: Yes, that's what I mean. I think I'd extend this to other "systems", though. Evil can arise in family systems and in congregational systems just as much as in large institutions. I could try to spell out the framework of how I think theologically if you like, but I’d probably need to do it on my own blog as it would be rather long. (Note: I refrain from calling it a “systematic theology†because it’s not *that* sophisticated!) John: "I greatly appreciate what you say about the need to stand against Evil systems. But I think that (1) virtually everyone is caught up in these to a greater or less extent." Pam: I think that this is exactly correct!! And it's for this reason that we all have a daily battle against evil. I guess by American religious standards, I'm a "liberal" and I often get told that "liberals don't take sin seriously". In fact, I take sin very seriously. I think I sin many times a day (and I don't think I'm all that different from everyone else!). As a Methodist, I think it’s my duty to “grow in holiness†and, by the grace of God and the discipline of prayer, to ask for the strength to sin less. John: "(2) there is a literal personal spiritual evil that interacts with virtually every area of life. Pam: I know you asked for the opinions of your readers, but I’d be interested in hearing what difference you thought that made to the every-day discipleship of most people. I’ve seen people spend lots of effort on “fighting demons†in their lives and it seems to me to be a very negative focus. For a start, the object of one’s attention is something evil and the “method†of fighting is, in my opinion as a pacifist, also an unholy method. I feel that I have far better success by trying to prayerfully make God in Christ the centre of my life. This might not work for people who are actually possessed (and I’ll have to say that I’ll probably remain agnostic on that for the moment), but it seems to me that it must be the better way for most Christians most of the time. 21 report abuse
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December 28, 2006
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I guess like most people, my view on Spiritual Warfare comes back to my views on the nature of evil. I don't believe Satan is either omnipotent nor omipresent. God knows what I am currently thinking, but Satan most likely does not. Angels and Demons are real, but I don't believe in a Perretti-Universe. For me, most evil in the world resides in the processes and strucutres of human institutions and if we want to really battle evil, it is there where we should locate ourselves.
When I read about the amour of God, I see an everyday struggle to live a sanctified life and when I read about principalities and powers I see the intangibility of fighting an institutional evil we can name but cannot touch. Those things are what Spiritual Warfare means to me. 22 report abuse
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December 28, 2006
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Webb,
I am confident that John's views have changed. Although I wonder if it is easier to be misunderstood today, or we are just realizing how misunderstood we were. Perhaps we were busy rallying the forces then, and we are considering those outside the walls today. I do agree with the observation about John being gracious to all. We had him at our church in the early 90's. It is unfortunate that ideas can be popularized and taken to extremes, and I think that happened with "Taking Your Cities for God," and the spiritual mapping, and territorial spirit approaches. John - I do wonder if the intentions are always the best. I know for many people they are good intentions, but I can't help but wonder as Adam noted on my blog, "It bothers me to see believers in Christ doing everything possible to open the windows of heaven so that they themselves won't have to listen respectfully to someone different and be challenged to embody the message of Christ." At every turn we have to evaluate ourselves and consider why we do what we do. 23 report abuse
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December 28, 2006
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Hi Pam,
I appreciate your additions to systems that can be evil, this goes along with my thinking that evil can touch virtually every area of our lives. If I understood right, you were asking what practical difference, as far as discipleship goes, that believing that there is a literal personal spiritual evil that interacts with every area of our lives makes. I'm guessing--please correct me if I'm wrong--that it's the "literal personal" part of this that you're questioning, because you don't hold to this and have seen people who overreact as a result of this belief as I also have? For me, I think that whether we believe that there are personal beings who are evil, in this case Satan and demons (as I do), or simply evil systems that are a part of human structures, our focus on discipleship can be the same when it comes to how we react to the systems. For example, even though you and I hold to different views on Satan being a personal being, we both can respond as Jesus would for good to bring salt and light to these evil systems. We can both think through how we live in spite of consumerism and greed and violence pervading our cultures. So in this sense I think there can be solid common ground. For me, I also think that there is an interaction between a personal Satan and demons, though I don't overdo this. Satan and demons are created, finite, fallen beings. Though they do interact in ways I only partly understand with fallen human beings to accomplish evil purposes within human lives and structures. So I think it necessary to be aware of this. But practically as far as discipleship goes, my main role when it comes to these beings is to resist them in the same way I need to resist my sinful nature by living the life Jesus has called me to. Does this make sense? Thanks for the dialog on this Pam 24 report abuse
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December 28, 2006
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Does this make sense?
I understand what you are saying. It does rather sound to me like we're not going to end up behaving terribly differently despite our different beliefs, though. 25 report abuse
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December 28, 2006
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Fernando,
Thank you for your succinct and helpful thoughts on spiritual warfare. You have summarized my own thoughts well. 26 report abuse
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December 28, 2006
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Phil and Webb,
I wound up sitting next to John Dawson's sister Jill on a flight from Australia to New Zealand a few years back by "coincidence". She was interesting to talk to, actually her husband taught in my YWAM DTS. I haven't heard about their views changing on this, but even if they have it seems to me that when it comes to spiritual warfare it's always these types of views that rise to the top of popularity. And I think that popular views of spiritual warfare are more often than not unhelpful, sensational, and even unbiblical. That sounds less kind than I'd like it to--this isn't a judgment in any way on the character, warmth, or kindness of persons involved. But it is a struggle with many popularist-Peretti type views of spiritual warfare. 27 report abuse
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December 28, 2006
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Pam,
Yeah, that is one of the things I was trying to say. I think that we wind up at similar responses. 28 report abuse
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December 28, 2006
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goodness me Joh what a debate- I am one who has moved from an over zealosu to a more cautious position, partly because like Pam from an evangelical charismatic perspective I was not certian that God was more powerful than Satan, now I am!
I believe that love is our greatest weapon in the spiritual armoury, if we can try to gain Gods true perspective on folk we might consider as others then we will start to pray and act in the right manner, our perspective will probably shift, we will be less concerned with being right than we will with loving others... God asks us to listen and to obey, to follow and to love, He does not requiore us to fight his battles for him indeed he does not need us to do so, we stand firm where we know we should- again discernment through prayer and trying to gain a godly perspective will help us... Let's give up seeing demons behind every bush, some of this stuff requires our own repentance rather than projection onto others spiritual or not.. Discernment yes- craziness and fear no. 29 report abuse
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December 28, 2006
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Sally,
Good to hear from you. I couldn't agree more that if we began to see people through God's eyes, listen, etc. that would greatly help. 30 report abuse
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December 28, 2006
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