| Playing Judge |
| Friday, 16 March 2007 | |
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. I forget what sparked the conversation. But during a class with students last quarter someone raised the issue of homosexuality in regard to 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. The gist of the conversation was that this sin would be judged especially harsh, and that those who practiced homosexuality would not inherit God's kingdom. In other words, this was a salvation issue for them. I invited the class to open up to this passage, and I asked someone to read out the verses. I raised that there were a number of practices listed here, not just homosexuality. Some of the others include:
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Comments (34)
 
Thanks John for this posting. There are many gay christians (and evangelicals, too) all over the world and the internet has given them an on-line voice that deserves to be respectfully heard. A comment from Marjorie on your previous post mentioned her experience with a church that kept out "undesirables" and how upsetting this was to her. I definitely think people with homosexual orientations have not only been treated as undesirables but christian gays have been judged, demonized, and silenced in the church community, without a fair & respectful hearing of their observations or claims.
Another great subject to research and review. Thanks for bringing it up. Keep up the good work.  1 report abuse
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March 16, 2007
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John,
Great post. And this is an honest question, as I've looked at this verse before....the words that are translated homosexual (effeminate in some translations) and male prostitutes.....are these good translations? My understanding is that homosexual/effeminate could also be translated "morally soft". What are your thoughts on this? My second thought is that "inheriting the kingdom of God" isn't necessarily about salvation, is it? We have the ability to walk in the kingdom in the here and now, we choose to take that freedom or not. I'm not sure that we have assumed correctly when we think the kingdom of God automatically translates into salvation. Can't wait to see more thoughts on this. I'm off to hear N. T. WRight this morning! Jamie 2 report abuse
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March 17, 2007
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Although it is hard for me to believe that some sin, such as pedophilia and child pornography, are not judged more harshly than some other sins, I think Paul's thoughts went much deeper than the surface effect of any particular sin. I believe he was addressing the moral compromise that ultimately leads to a society embracing such decadent sin (i.e. NAMBLA, or judges who give 6 month's probation to sexual child abusers).
If you look at Romans 1 and 2 in context it is not a diatribe against homosexuality as many theologians lead us to believe, but rather it exposes the hypocrisy of us all and is stern warning for us not to be judgmental of others. Look what it says right after Paul's rant on homosexuality in the end of Romans 1: 9They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. Who can find themselves excluded from this list of sins? If you can, you are a more righteous person than I. Apparently many Bible scholars disregard what Paul says in the beginning of chapter 2: 1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance? Therefore, I can only conclude that if we don't want to "show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patiences" then we should by all means be extending these same graces to all mankind rather than standing in judgment of them. Perhaps the worst part about judgmentalism is that it is a return to the Law. It is a denial of the finished work of Jesus; it implies that His sacrifice was not good enough. People who do not yet believe are overwhelmed by the notion that they can't measure up to God's Law and many Christians keep them under that yoke rather than leading them to Grace. Missional simply has to be about grace--not about immoral license, nor salvation by works, but simply about the Grace of God to accept us where we are and lead us into the ways of His Kingdom. 3 report abuse
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March 17, 2007
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This is a good topic which, I feel, the mainstream church has neglected. When the people were ready to stone a woman taken in adultery and Jesus told them those without sin can first cast a stone, I wonder what Jesus wrote on the ground. (John 8:3-10)
I believe that when People are made to feel rejected because of unacceptable sins, we are doing a great disservice and put ourselves up for a great fall. However, just because we are helpless, does it mean we are suppose to continue in our sins because we are under grace? 4 report abuse
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March 17, 2007
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good questions John, it is easy to justify our "small" sins in the light of "bigger" ones, we feel better about ourselves and more justified in apportioning blame, but the truth is we all stand on an even playing field...and must find it within ourselves to be gracious to those who we are tempted to marginalise... Jesus certainly had a way of doing that, with the woman caught in adultery, ( hmmm what about the man- was he above guilt???) and with Zaccheus and countless others....
We too readily hide behind masks of respectability...if only we were brave enough to lay them down! 5 report abuse
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March 17, 2007
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Charles, you said "just because we are helpless, does it mean we are supposed to continue in sins because we are under grace?"
In my view, we are not helpless at all! It is a great pity that Paul's warnings to the leaders of different communities to be on guard against a sense of self-righteousness and 'works glorifying the self' have become the servant of the 'we are all sinners' teaching. The First Epistle of John demonstrates the 'unscripturalness' of this teaching: "My little children, let no man lead you astray: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous: he that doeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. To this end was the Son of God manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin... and he CANNOT sin because he is begotten of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil; whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:7-10) So it is that those who choose to follow the righteousness of Jesus have become children of the Most High, 'begotten' of God, and CANNOT sin. And what is righteousness and holiness? - purity of heart, guilelessness, unselfishness, love... It is self-evident that these qualities are universal and independent of all human divisions...including sexual orientation. 6 report abuse
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March 17, 2007
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PART 1 -
1. Do you believe some sins will be judged worse than others? Why or why not? I think that certain sinning may be worst than others for sure. That is, the practices and intentions of an individual sinner play a role here. Also, I’m not as convinced about the equality of sins as some are. At the very least, I think we must admit different degrees of judgment, which tells us something about the practices of those who commit sin. As far as the paper clips reference  ) , I don’t think that “stealing†paper clips is the same as planning a bank robbery or breaking into an elderly woman’s apartment or raping someone or . . . you get the point. Then again, it’s probably not the sin alone that is at issue but also the accompanying circumstances (motives, degree of selfishness, etc.). I do think it is possible–based on Paul’s language when discussing homosexuality, for instance, that certain sins could be “worse†(better, out-of-alignment with God’s ideal?)in the sense that they run contrary to God’s original purpose in creation. On the other hand, maybe we’re confusing apples and oranges. Maybe some things fit into what we might call an unnatural category, things like pedophilia and incest and the activities of Auschwitz. But, at the end of the day, all sin is an affront to a holy God and is probably uglier and far more heinous than any of us imagine. Thus, if I think my greed is okay but my neighbor’s adultery is not, I’m kidding myself; who cares which is worse, for they are both wrong in God’s sight! Indeed, I wonder how often our greed or lust or pride or whatever (you know, those “acceptable†sins) blind us to the reality that all sinners require mercy and kindness and grace. Bottom line? We all struggle with lots of things and need the love of God to envelop us. Let’s be clear. Many evangelicals have been critical of homosexuals to the point of meanness, imbalance, and just plain stupidity; this is arrogant and unfortunate and has driven many away; this clearly runs contrary to the attitude of Jesus, who was a friend of sinners (that includes you and me). At the same time, the media and popular culture portray homosexuality as an almost “darling†lifestyle, the one thing you cannot talk about or be critical of. Both the judgmental attitudes and practices of the church and the politically correct attitudes of much of contemporary society frustrate me. If we treat as acceptable the idea that homosexual practice is okay, we are, I think, minimizing aspects of Scripture. In my opinion, this would be akin to treating casual sex, adultery, and the like as okay (as popular culture has already done). Indeed, it is already treated as a joke to even consider abstinence as an option in today’s popular press. Movies poke fun at it (The 40 Year Old Virgin–which is funny, by the way) and nearly everyone treats virginity as abnormal. My, how quickly we have changed! Not long ago, the “abnormal†or unacceptable thing was to sleep around. Now, in some circles at least, it is considered strange to not sleep around. On the other hand, many evangelicals are obsessed with pointing the finger at homosexuals and decrying their behavior. Part of this is due to a hyper separatistic mentality, for many Christians simply spend no quality time with the people of their culture. Perhaps, this is something of an overstatement, but I do believe that a good number of believers either form completely separate communities or they (in the name of faithfulness) merely dabble in relationships with the people of the world. When you take such a stance, you aren’t really a homophobe but rather a “worldaphobe†or a “culturalaphobe.†You are afraid of any relationship that might challenge your faith, pop your bubble, or make you feel uncomfortable. This doesn’t mean that your evaluation of what you observe in culture is necessarily wrong, but it does mean that you will likely lack the empathy and compassion that occurs when you truly get to know people. A lot if this is, in my opinion, amounts to phariseeism. [I should point out here that I teach health–including sex education–at a local high school. Thus, we discuss matters that have a bearing on this issue. For instance we talk briefly about the act of fertilization and the possibilities. These include those rare cases, sometimes termed hermaphrodites, were a child is born with male and female sex organs. This presents quite a difficulty for those who want to always make these matters easy to decipher and categorize. There are some cases, frankly, when–to put it bluntly–I’m not sure if such a person would be considered male or female. Talk about confusing! Therefore, there may be complicating matters that make our evaluation less than certain. That said, I do think we must view these matters as the exception, not the rule. Does that make any sense?] For what it's worth, PART 2 to follow. 7 report abuse
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March 17, 2007
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PART 2 -
2. Do you believe that there are sins that can nullify a persons salvation, even if they have professed faith in Jesus Christ? Nothing can separate us from the love of God, and it’s never a works salvation. There is one very strange and difficult-to-decipher sin, called the “unforgivable sin,†which is much debated, but that’s another discussion. The issue here is not whether a truly saved person can lose his/her salvation. Rather, the issue is how one can know if one is truly saved (have assurance) if he/she is living in ways contrary to the gospel. Granted, this is notorious difficult and slippery subject (some people drive themselves crazy wondering if they are “in,†while others simply live anyway that they want). Still, I think this is the data we must come to grips with. (1) Grace means just that–grace! We are freely accepted because of Jesus, period. (2) Those who claim to follow Jesus are expected/assumed to follow him, and this is not to be taken lightly. Those who receive Jesus as Savior will attempt to follow him as Lord. While I do not pretend to know what this looks like, I can’t deny that it is a part of the NT data that we must grapple with. (3) What happens when our sin or consciences get the best of us? What strategy should we employ? I’d say we should take our sin seriously, but our serious thoughts should take place within the environment of grace. Again, we mess up all the time, and we may have serious questions about our status before God. But, our uncertainty and doubt, whether warranted or not, should occur within the presence and sphere of God’s unconditional love. In fact I would argue that an awareness that “He loves me anyway†is actually a better strategy for changing us than a “Woe is me†approach, though, again, they both have their place. 3. Why do you think some are quick to use verses such as 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 to point out homosexuality, while ignoring, say, greed? Because we all want to minimize our own culpability. If we can spend a lot of time blaming others, lowering their place in the world, making them out to be less than we are, we naturally feel better about ourselves. I don’t think we can sit idly by and never point out the wrongs of society, etc. That in itself would be a sin. But we must somehow (together and by his grace) try to keep in mind who and what we are. Paul in Galatians had a great strategy. He talked about pointing out the wrongs of others but in such a way that you “look to yourself first lest you too be tempted.†As an aside, when I was pastoring my last church, we had, I think, 3 get-togethers just to talk about the issue of homosexuality. Each time, we had an honest and open discussion, and no one was either too critical or too relativistic. We talk about hermaphrodites and other difficult issues. I think it is simply one of those current trends that must be addressed with prayer, an allegiance to what God seems to be saying, and an attitude of humility. Okay, I’ll shut up. :-) 8 report abuse
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March 17, 2007
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well, as per number 3 it is simple. we are so synchronized with the empire that we are all guilty of greed and what not. but homosexuality is still out there for us to point fingers at.
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March 17, 2007
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Steve,
Thanks for your thoughts my friend. I agree. When we close our eyes and put our hands over our ears, chances are we'll miss some things. 10 report abuse
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March 17, 2007
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Jamie,
I'm starting to re-look into words, etc. in relation to this. I'll take your word for it until I hear otherwise How was N.T. Wright? I'm jealous! 11 report abuse
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March 17, 2007
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Webb,
Very, very, helpful thoughts. I also find it hard to believe that some sins such as pedophilia won't be judged more harshly. There's no doubt that some sins cause far more havoc in people's lives. But all of us have missed the mark, and your thoughts on the context and meaning of Romans 1-2 were very helpful. 12 report abuse
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March 17, 2007
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Hi Charles,
Thanks for commenting! I don't think we have excuses to sin because we're under grace. But need to have the humility to recognize we do, and that we shouldn't be pointing at the speck in others eyes, when we have a log in ours--as Someone said 13 report abuse
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March 17, 2007
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Sally,
I think the reality is our sins mostly feel "smaller" and everyone else's seem "bigger". Jesus was very gracious with those who were thought to have the big ones (eg tax collectors) and quite harsh with those with the smaller ones (eg Pharisees). 14 report abuse
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March 17, 2007
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Vynette,
Are you saying that if we follow Jesus we don't sin anymore in this life, or that we're forgiven of all of our sins? 15 report abuse
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March 17, 2007
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I feel that sin separates me from God regardless of what kind of sin it is, but I am clean and holy when I accept Jesus. I think about Peter’s dream with the food God tells him to eat even though it is considered unclean for some of his fellow Jews. Could this be a parallel for us not to judge others? Could it be that some people have been hurt by the judgment of today’s Pharisees and therefore do not understand God’s love, mercy and grace?
I agree with Charles in his comment, “We are helpless in our sins.†I am a sinner because it is impossible to live a sinless life. This is why Jesus had to die for my sins. However, while I turn my sins and weaknesses over to the Lord, I believe I can have victory. I am learning to be honest with myself and my relationship with the Lord, and have come to the conclusion that I have to continually receive help from the Lord if I am going to grow spiritually. 16 report abuse
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March 17, 2007
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Carmen,
In relation to your part 1, the more I think about these things, the more questions I have--and am starting to read more and think further through. But take your example of hermaphrodites. That kind of screws up our neat categories of sexuality. What do we do with people who from a young age have struggled with same-sex attraction, which comes for them as naturally as heterosexuality does for you and I? I mean, the standard approach has been to ridicule them, isolate them, and tell them they're on the highway to hell. But even if Jesus disagrees with same-sex relationships--noting that some disagree that he would disagree--would Jesus treat people in this way? Adultery was a stoneable offense in the OT, yet Jesus treats the women caught in adultery with more grace than most bosses would treat an employee who stole a paper-clip (yeah, back to my paper-clip!). What does this say to us? 17 report abuse
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March 17, 2007
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Carmen,
With you part 2, yep and yep and yep, etc. For me, these are somewhat more straightforward questions, though still complex. 18 report abuse
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March 17, 2007
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Mike,
I agree. The hypocrisy of it all sucks. 19 report abuse
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March 17, 2007
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Marjorie,
Thanks for your helpful comment! I definitely think you're on to something important in regard to some people not being able to understand God's grace and love because of how modern Pharisees have portrayed him. 20 report abuse
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March 17, 2007
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John,
First of all, keep in mind that these are pretty much off the cuff remarks, so I certainly could be messed up on a number of matters . . . even the paper clip thing! Second, I have questions too. I agree that the hermaphrodites thing messes up our neat categorization, which was my point. However, I first of all think that this is fairly rare (though I admit it is a "can of worms" issue) Next, I still think we have to believe something when it comes to these matters. At the end of the day, we must figure out and apply Scripture in some way, and--though our desires and preferences matter, Scripture (to the degree that we rightly understand it) must take precedence. To use a hyperbole, a man might say he loves to steal/have sex with many women/pick fights/drive airplanes into buildings/etc. but we wouldn't say that these were proper simply because some people are inclined to them. I exagerate for effect, but my point is that we must deal with both our personal likes/dislikes and what the bible allows for. Sometimes, our personal preferences can cause us to reconsider our interpretations, which is a good thing. But our preferences should not (ideally) be allowed to take such a priority that we actualy twist the bible's meaning. As for the standard approach you mentioned, I mostly agree. There has been way too much of this arrogance and hatred. Then again, I have noticed a tendency among some to exaggerate these matters. I know of quite a few traditional types who would never think of harming a homosexual. For instance in my first church, which was more rigid than I prefer, there was a mix. Some of them were mean-spirited, and this did bother me. Others were kind. And still others were not so much mean as afraid, fearful that contact with the unknown might harm them or fearful that their faith might be challenged. Again, I agree that the church in general has reacted this negative way, and we should be ashamed. But there are still good people out there who love people no matter what. I know you know this, John. [As an aside of sorts, a lot of postmodern ministry and discussion seems to center on the errors of modernity. This is due, in part, to the experiences of those who fled from those churches (often after spiritual abuse). BELIEVE ME, I understand this completely, for I have had my own painful times. Still--and I am NOT putting myself up as a standard on this--I also think that the initial reactionary spirit (which, in God's grace, can be a good thing) must eventually back off a little and lead to a more seasoned approach. Thus, if my 9 year old throws something at my 13 year old, the impulse of my 13 year old is to react quickly and strongly. When this occurs, I completely understand, and I correct my 9 year old. But I also do not encourage my 13 year old to over-react. That is a sign of immaturity. I guess my point is that in the process of reactiing against stuff (and there is and will always be a lot to react against), at some point we have to temper this a bit. Actually, John, you seem to do a great job of this, and for that I am thankful. I, on the other hand, am only beginning to work my way in this direction. 21 report abuse
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March 17, 2007
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Carmen,
Thanks for your follow-up thoughts. I agree that we need to stick with what the Bible allows. God help us if we think we know better than Scripture. That said, at times--for example with the women's issue that I raised this week, or slavery or racism at earlier times--I think we mistake the common opinion in the Christian community for what the Bible says. I personally doubt many people in the Christian community have done little more than looked at this issue more than superficially. If they did otherwise, I don't know that this would change their overall perspective, though at the least I think it would leave us with more grace. You raised that some are fearful, or are concerned with how associating with certain people would effect their faith. I think this is quite a widespread problem, and if Christians interacted more with a wide diversity of people, we'd have a much easier time showing grace because we'd see people as people instead of labels associated with our fears. Yes, I do know there are people out there who love people no matter what. I thank God for these people! I hear you on the need to temper things somewhat--and I think you do that very well. Though I also fear that tempering things will be the first step toward accepting a new status quo. This may be unreasonable, I'm not sure. But I think that the most important thing is that we don't major on criticizing what has been, but focus on moving a head. Last, but not least. I have far more questions than answers when it comes to this particular topic. 22 report abuse
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March 17, 2007
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I think that was one of the great things about Jesus, he redifined sin from the expression of the action to the substance behind it, whilst we might not commit adultery for instance we may still think the lustful thoughts that lead down that path or we may not kill with out hands but are quite happy to assinate people with our words etc. The kingdom of God is in part an invitation to indwell us where these feelings and attitudes lie and to be part of the transformation inwards and out...
It's quite easy to pick on homosexuality they are a minority and most of us are not affected by it - therefore it is very easy to highlight a sin that does not affect me. Indeed it is quite easy to read the bible in a way that highlights others sins instead of asking the bible to read us. In the end the bible leaves us only with an other centred love ethic in treating others and and an encouragement to give each other back our humanity as the Spirit indwells in us and is giving us back our own. 23 report abuse
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March 18, 2007
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John,
Both! Scripture attests that a truly 'reborn' Christian, who has symbolically followed Jesus through his crucifixion and resurrection by voluntarily putting the old 'earthy' (Adamic) person to death, has been 'resurrected' as a new spiritual creature, has had all his or her 'sins' washed away and cannot sin in future. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12) So it is that genuine spiritually 'reborn' Christians are all children of God, all 'begotten' of God, and all in the same state of 'grace' as pre-Fall Adam and Eve. 24 report abuse
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March 18, 2007
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One of today's readings threw an interesting indea into this mix - Proverbs 16.5 "Everyone who is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD; Assuredly, he will not be unpunished."
25 report abuse
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March 18, 2007
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Paul,
I appreciate this about Jesus as well. Instead of concentrating on the outward superficial layers of who we are, he looked deep inside. 26 report abuse
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March 18, 2007
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Vynette,
I struggle with your thoughts here. If you're right about Christians not sinning, I'm definitely not a Jesus-follower and I've yet to meet one. 27 report abuse
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March 18, 2007
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Fernando,
I saw yesterday that you'd mentioned these verses on your blog without applying them to a particular context. Do you think it applies here in that those who point out one sin above the others are being prideful? 28 report abuse
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March 18, 2007
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I chose not to comment on them, because they seem more powerful when left open-ended.
I feel they apply here first of all, because when people today list the "worst" sins they don't tend to mention pride, conceit and arrogance as often as might have been the case in the past. For me the interpretive tradition behind the seven deadly sins speaks powerfully to this question of what sins are more grievous to our relationship with God and pride is right there near the top of the list. Moreover, I do think there *can* be some misplaced pride in pointing out of sin. It's the older borther in the prodigal story again and, of course, it is the problem of shadows. If we have a lot invested in living a righteous life, being an upstanding member of a community, being a devoted servant, then the shadows will always trouble our sense of worth and identity. So the tendency to look down and judge will be there because it assuages our pride and restores our sense of moral order. 29 report abuse
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March 18, 2007
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Fernando,
I agree that it is powerful leaving things uncommented. It got me thinking for sure. Thank you for your further explanation and thought. 30 report abuse
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March 18, 2007
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John,
I suppose it depends on the definition of 'sin.' I suspect that many Christians are too hard on themselves and classify all manner of passing thoughts, minor failings and struggles against temptation as 'sin.' Is God so harsh and demanding? I don't think so. After all, he knows we are but flesh and blood. And as I think I've said here previously, the 'end of the charge is a pure heart and a good conscience...' 31 report abuse
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March 19, 2007
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John. Came into this one late but I wanted to let you know that you hit the nail on the head. I think it is natural for us to look at the speck in someone elses eye by looking around the 2X4 in ours.
I also do not agree with the translation of "effeminate" to mean homosexual. It refers to behavior, appearance or speech with is similar to that belonging to women or girls or an absence of "vigorous" qualities. I may be going out on a limb. Simply put, the word effeminate, in my opinion, describes someone who displays more feminine qualities than masculine qualities and does not imply homosexuality in any way shape or form. 32 report abuse
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June 20, 2007
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Mike,
Thanks for the feedback. I struggle with some of the way verses are interpreted, and the meaning given to words in this context. But still thinking through this. 33 report abuse
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June 20, 2007
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"Simply put, the word effeminate, in my opinion, describes someone who displays more feminine qualities than masculine qualities and does not imply homosexuality in any way shape or form"...
Therefore in context, does this mean that women and girls, who are feminine, are in danger of not inheriting the Kingdom of God because of their natural, God given characteristics? That these characteristics somehow make them less valuable than men? I really don't think so, which is why i would go with the homosexual translation. 34 report abuse
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December 30, 2007
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