| How To Choose A Church |
| Wednesday, 07 May 2008 | |
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One of the topics that came up in the comment section of my last post on church affiliation, was how one goes about picking a church that is right for them. I've blogged on this in the past. Including my struggle with Christian babies--those who go to churches demanding to be fed, with no thought of feeding others. My response to this question is that people should choose a church based on two primary considerations--what they can receive, and what they can give. Here's the gist of what this looks like for me: What You Should Expect to Receive From a Local Church
I'd appreciate your thoughts:
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Christian babies makes me laugh
 I guess a lot of us have an attitude of what's in it for me..instead of how can I serve.1 report abuse
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May 07, 2008
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I'm currently in search of a church and people have asked me the same thing "what do you look for in a church?" After much deliberation, I feel like the common factor in all the churches I've been to and committed to (regardless of how the relationship ended) was a sense of community. A healthy mix of how I can serve and be served. As much as I try to list the expectation I look for in a church I usually end up where I feel welcomed, loved and needed for who I am. The crazy redheaded woman that I can be (gifts, sins and all).
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May 07, 2008
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Jane,
Glad I made you laugh  I think that its part of our culture to always be thinking what we can get out of institutions--so why not the church, particularly when it acts institutionalized? It will take a lot to change people's way of thinking on this. 3 report abuse
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May 07, 2008
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Hi Leya,
I think community is hugely important. I hope you find a community to belong to. Glad to find your blog as well, and see you were blogging on women in leadership. I'm looking forward to reading more. 4 report abuse
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May 07, 2008
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I like your lists. I think love underlies all those concepts. The only reason I might add love to both those lists is 'cause people at times forget that love is supposed to underly those concepts.
Gotta receive it; gotta give it back. Gotta have it as the foundation of everything we do. Worship in love for God. Teach and preach with love for His followers and the lost. Equip in love. Give of yourself in love. The "Christian babies," as you call them, are being selfish, which has nothing to do with love. That's why they're so exasperating; their behavior is so very unChristian. 5 report abuse
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May 07, 2008
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Thoughts on:
- Biblically based preaching and teaching - Equipping for everyday life at home, work, and play The problem is there are plenty of churches who offer biblically based preaching and teaching and still produce Christians who have no idea of how to read the Bible holistically and contextually, who are hazy on core teachings like Trinity and Incarnation and would struggle to remember the Creed, who are ignorant of broader Christian history and tradition beyond their own narrow denomination, who fixate on peripheral issues like end times speculation and wouldn't have the first clue how to pick a good book from a bad book in a Christian bookstore. Need I go on? And I am yet to find a church that offers any substantial meaty teaching on work. Yeah, yeah, a few touch it once a year, but as most of us spend most of our waking hours in that context it suggests utter imbalance. Before I could choose a church that did such things I would have to find it first! 6 report abuse
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May 07, 2008
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I was once asked to help a church put a worship band and contemporary service together. Upon asking a friend who was familiar with all the churches in the local ministerium, he told me, "I'm not sure if (that church) will meet your needs." Immediately, it came to me. Of course they couldn't, but they had a need that perhaps I could meet, and that approach made all the difference to me. I was going there to serve, not be served.
But if a church does not provide an atmosphere where we have the freedom to serve, using our gifts and talents, then either we don't belong there or else the church is squelching the work of the Holy Spirit, emasculating the congregation from being able to minister according to its collective gifts. Unfortunately, the very thing that the senior pastor of that particular church wanted, he prevented from coming to fruition, because he simply could not or would not let go and give those within his congregation, who were much more gifted in the areas needed to implement that change than he was, the freedom they needed to take it where he believed God wanted it to go. Of course, most of us already know that this is too often the case. A preacher can have great ideas and he or she can articulate them quite well from behind the pulpit--so much so that the message resonates with the parishioners, and they flock there in droves to hear the great preaching. But, if that preaching fails to mobilize the congregation to action, to utilizing their gifts, to being Jesus' hands and feet to their community and beyond, then the church can only focus on the one ministry that it has going for it--that being the man behind the pulpit. Whether he realizes or not, his ministry takes precedence over all other potential ministries the congregation may have to offer, and thus they wind up building a big edifice around the pulpit and the buck stops there, because that is the central focal point mission, and ministry of the church. It's sad, really, because so many people in every church have so much to offer, yet their God-given gifts are wasted, their energies averted by narrow-minded leadership and congregations. It escapes me why it has to be this way. All businesses recruit employees who have the abilities to make their business successful. They expect those employees to work as a team to that end. If people aren't willing to work, they won't be there long. Today's churches don't recruit laborers; instead they lure consumers by appealing to their sensual desires, giving them all kinds of activities that consume most of their free time even if they would like to serve in some way. It's just weird when you think about it. 7 report abuse
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May 08, 2008
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I would add;
Is the church you're considering, Christ focused? (Or is it church focused?) If it’s not about Christ, run! If the only time you hear Jesus' name is when 'it' is used to make God do something  run! "What You Should Expect to Receive From a Local Church" -Christ centered teaching -Accountable leadership without hierarchy "What You Should Expect to Give To a Local Church" -Love -Mercy -Honesty 8 report abuse
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May 08, 2008
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I think part of the shift needs to be an ability to differentiate between a transactional relationship (not good) and a mutual relationship (ideal). Too often we can articulate and engage the above points in an investment mindset.
Mutuality is born out of the deep realization that, while the church provides these important elements, we ARE the church, thus not simply consumers who repay with our time, energy, etc. but co-creators of the community we are call to become. Great post. Peace, Jamie 9 report abuse
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May 09, 2008
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Matt,
What about 'quality' biblically sound preaching and teaching? I believe if the truth is spoken in love and with passion, the giving/receiving and relationship/belonging is a natural result. I suppose if I were to be leading someone to a church, I would first have to find out why they are looking for a church. Are they church hopping, a new christian, a non-christian, burnt out, etc? When I moved back into my hometown after being gone for 6 years, I asked my youth pastor which church he would recommend (yes, in my denomination). I groaned when he told me which one, but I had four kids very young and they needed good guidance and involvement in healthy social activities. After the first Sunday at this recommended church, where no one talked to me at all in Sunday School and the sermon was very dry, I asked my kids what they thought, and they were so excited and loved it. I committed myself to stay for their sake. In the years that have passed, 12 in all, I have attempted to make the changes that I felt were lacking in the church, but also realized that I can get something out of every sermon or study if I really wanted to. If I wanted something bad enough then I need to be willing to seek it or do it myself, not always rely on the 'church' to provide it. This has been unfortunately true regarding quality education, and I attempt to bring my Bible College knowledge to my Sunday School class (I am not the teacher) so that everyone gets the benefit of the new knowledge. There is no perfect body of believers but we can all do our part to support and encourage the ones we belong to. 10 report abuse
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May 09, 2008
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Elaine, the problem is I have heard many sermons full of truth, spoken in love and with passion, that still left people hazy about deeper teachings and the broader Biblical picture, that still leaves people fixated on peripheral matters, however true they are.
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May 10, 2008
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Matt,
I had a discussion last night about the benefit of catechism classes for youth. What do you think of catechism for deeper education from a primary level? 12 report abuse
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May 10, 2008
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I think I'd add that it had a vision to be missional. If it's just about serving each other, that kind of misses the point I think.
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May 11, 2008
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K.W. Leslie,
I agree. Love needs to be at the center of all we do. Sadly, I think that word has lost its meaning somewhat though. We "love" each other; "love" Pulp Fiction; and "love" Italian food. 14 report abuse
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May 12, 2008
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Matt Stone,
Sigh. You bring up real problems. I've helped out a few churches over the years who have offered more in depth courses on theology, mission, apologetics, etc. I think this helps. I've also participated in "outreach" events that I've felt are helpful. But I think there's more that we're missing. Any thoughts on what local churches can do to rectify the problems you raise? 15 report abuse
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May 12, 2008
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Webb Kline,
There's a lot of control problems that go on out there. A church is healthiest when everyone is contributing their gifts. 16 report abuse
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May 12, 2008
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7catz,
Thanks for your additions and input 17 report abuse
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May 12, 2008
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Jamie Arpin-Ricci,
Thanks for the helpful distinction 18 report abuse
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May 12, 2008
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Elaine,
You're more optimistic than I am about the response to good teaching What I've observed is people saying "good sermon" and doing nothing about it 99 out of 100 times. 19 report abuse
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May 12, 2008
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Duncan McFadzean,
Definitely have to add the missional part. I include that in my thinking with the equipping for all of life, but thanks for raising it. 20 report abuse
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May 12, 2008
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My Dad is in the Air Force here in Australia, so I have lived in many cities whilst moving around with my family and as well moved cities a couple times since leaving home. I find that there are differing factors at different times. When me and my siblings were young say 7 and under we didn't have too much impact on what church we became apart of as long there was some sort of sunday school that was us sorted and my parents just looked for somewhere they could serve in their sining and drama. As we got older in primary school and later on in highschool we would visit a church and my parents would ask us to see if we liked the sunday school/kids church program, if it got a no, well that was a pretty big factor for my parents wanting to help their children grow in faith in Jesus. And if we could make friends with the youth of a church and didn't find it to be too uncool than that would be a factor. My parents once went to a church service without us to check out if they thought it met what their theological view was, it didn't and they told us it wasn't an option. My parents often looked for opportunities to serve as a big factor, when my father gave up volunteer leading the childrens ministry in the church we were leaving because of a move interstate, that a church in the town we moved to needed someone to take on this role was a big flashing fluro sign. Six months after being there he was in.
For me when i moved out of home there were some deciding factors, i had moved to a university in a country city with limited public transport especially on Sundays and no churches in walking distance. So that some people i met at a university christian meeting offered to drive me to a small group and church on sundays i was in. That i didn't really like a whole bunch of stuff with this church didn't put me off though, i figured how were things ever going to change if no one new stayed long enough to get involved and help change some things. My most recent move to a new city the things i looked for were in no real order: Near to where i was living Had missional focus People my age i could relate to Good core beliefs Somewhere i could see God use me Somethings that put me off churches i visited: Service went for too long and no one made eye contact with me Church seemed to have no future direction and too churchy and not enough real authenticity Weird feeling as i walked toward the building from car park, felt like God was saying go back to your car and drive off (just being honest) My parents went there (i got over this one and this is my Church, Dad got moved over a year ago now so they aren't around anymore anyway) Seemed promising but too far to travel 21 report abuse
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May 13, 2008
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johnman,
I agree with your statement, " i figured how were things ever going to change if no one new stayed long enough to get involved and help change some things." People seem to want to run rather than put in a conscious effort to help grow a church in a healthy way. John, I believe mentoring is part of healthy teaching. With good mentoring, people should grow. I want to beleive I am optimistic about God's ability to move the people if we are focused on Biblically based preaching and teaching. 22 report abuse
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May 13, 2008
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John and Elaine, I think there is a need for some sort of structured "intermediate" training, whether you call it a catechism or something else.
The problem seems to be, at least in the churches I've known and/or been a part of, is that we offer structured "introductory" training for those new to the Christian life, and structured "advanced" training for those moving into Christian ministry, but nothing but disconnected adhoc teaching for people in between. Now this ad hoc teaching, absorbed through sermons and small group Bible studies, can be very good in some ways, giving people tools for living the Christian life and tools for exegeting books and passages. But systematic? Training that addresses holes in the overall picture? Where is that? So we end up producing Christians that have all this nice info but no idea of how to join the dots between it all in any sort of truly integrated fashion. Those that want more get told to go to college. Now this problem is sort of what led Rick Warren to produce his Purpose Driven Life (TM) stuff. But the problem there is its a proprietary thing that comes prepackaged and internally resistant to local contextualization. What I think we need is for some of us to get together and develop some open source / copy left training material that can be shared and adapted to each of our contexts without each of us having to reinvent everything and worry about copyright issues. It is a scandal that there is no free teaching about Christianity anymore. 23 report abuse
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May 13, 2008
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Matt,
Even those who might want to go to xian colleges frequently cannot afford to do so. So, when do you start publishing, you have great ideas, would like to see them come to fruition. I am not educated enough to be as holistic as I would like in designing an education series. 24 report abuse
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May 14, 2008
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Oh, neither am I, that's why I am toying with the idea of some sort of open source project that multiple people can contribute to.
25 report abuse
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May 14, 2008
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John, these are timely questions for me. It's interesting that you put time service and money at the top of the list things to be given to the local church as they really are the typical price most churches expect you to "pay to play." The transaction typically promises worship, "teaching" and "friendship" in return.
For me worship is way down on the list of my wants from a church and what I expect in worship is pretty low key and easy to deliver. Like Matt, I'm suspicious now of the biblical teaching mantra. It's good in theory, but I've seen far too many examples where it just doesn't translate. What we need is properly theological teaching that is oriented towards living the faith *outside* the church and typically in a working context. I feel that requires ministers who understand what it means to work and church leaders who understand how to build relationships outside the church. Sometimes those are in short supply. For me the conundrum is that church really should be outwardly focussed, but so much of the "needs" of the church are about maintaining and supporting inwardly looking structures. 26 report abuse
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May 26, 2008
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Fernando, I remember being involved in a workplace ministry once and getting a little frustrated with how disconnected it was from workplace realities. At one point I voiced the frustration and said, "Anyway I'm not sure how much I have to learn about workplace ministry from ministers who've never worked in the secular world." One guy got really, really upset and defensive. Guess what? Unbeknown to me he was...
I didn't last in the group much longer My point here is, I think clergy do not give enough credit to lay insight when it comes to ministry beyond the Sunday service and what we really need is more genuine, authentic, bona fide partnership. And that first means clergy need to care about what they can do for us and not just what we can do for them. It needs to be more reciprocal. So yes I agree with you. 27 report abuse
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May 26, 2008
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Once upon a time some denominations used to knock people back for not having experienced full-time work. When I was at theological college, I could count on one hand the number of students *I knew* that could point to having held down a job for five years. An awful lot couldn't even point to five years of work even if you tallied up all the part-time jobs and bits and pieces. Heck, some had never even held a full-time job - ever!
In those years of "theological education" the question of what people *did* in their working hours was, at best, peripheral, floating on the edges of pastoral care and ethics courses, but never really getting near the core of any subject. To be fair, I think some of the faculty did take it seriously themselves. But, I never felt like most students really did. I don't want to paint all pastors as out of touch, but more than a few I've known just don't really get what it means to commit 10, 15, or 20 hours a week to church *on top* of a fulltime week. The last church committee meeting my wife attended (five years ago now), she had left for work before our daughter woke in the morning, ground out a 12 hour day, didn't make it home in time to see our daughter before she went to bed, skipped dinner and walked into the meeting 5 minutes late. The minister then made a snide comment about people not showing enough dedication to turn up on time. 28 report abuse
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May 29, 2008
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Fernando,
I struggled even as I was including time, service, and money as something rubs me the wrong way with this. But I can't put my finger on it, and I can't see how things can work practically speaking without some level of each of these from most people. Any thoughts on this? 29 report abuse
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May 29, 2008
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Matt Stone,
I absolutely agree with the need for partnership in this regard. Pastors don't know it all, shouldn't pretend to know it all, or be expected to know it all. The best solution is often for pastor's to get out of the way of others who are more gifted and experienced to teach, lead, whatever in certain areas. 30 report abuse
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May 29, 2008
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Fernando,
That's a painful story. Pastors can not only be out of touch at times, they can also think everything should be centered on their's or the church's time schedule. This isn't always practical for people who work. 31 report abuse
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May 29, 2008
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Those present themselves because that's the fundamental struggle most churches have - to pay the bills, staff and buildings. Of course, we don't say that's the fundamental problem and we might want to be focussed more on mission or care, or whatever. But property and pastors are the hole that "needs" to be filled.
And, I think that's what creates the perception that the church exists to serve itself. I'll be honest, I can't think of a solution beyond becoming "lighter," which in the most obvious sense means avoiding extra spending on property and staff. It's probably too big an issue to go into in detail in a comment, but I'm disinclined these days to see a growth either in the number of people in "fulltime" ministry or any increased spend in new building. If we want to give the impression that we are about more than staff and property, then we have to reduce the drag those have on us. As long as we carry those as our primary commitments (or are tied to them by existing arrangments) then we will forever be weighed down by them. 32 report abuse
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June 03, 2008
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