| Defending God |
| Thursday, 19 July 2007 | |
|
I talked with a family member recently who isn't a Jesus-follower. They've seen all that I've gone through in the last year and questioned me as to how I could still be a believer. They added, "This is why I could never be a believer". I said that I did see God at work through people. I also have continued to sense God's presence through it all. They inquired how I couldn't "question the Lord". I said I had plenty of questions, and admitted not many answers. It's this tension, of having many questions and few answers, that likely pulls people away from God or--at least eventually--into a more meaningful relationship where trust grows. Let me know your thoughts:
Set as favorite
Bookmark
Email This
Hits: 1642 Trackback(0)
Comments (42)
 
John,
I haven't gotten the opportunity to hear your story yet, but I do know the dark night of the soul. Suffering to me helped me realize who I really was and I would in hindsight wish for no less. Each moment of pain was asking me who I really wanted to be. Although I don't wish for suffering, I am grateful for the experiences I had. I love how Mercy Me put it in "Bring the Rain". I can count a million times People asking me how I Can praise You with all that I've gone through The question just amazes me Can circumstances possibly Change who I forever am in You Suffering offers me the opportunity to consistently define my identity in Him, not in my circumstances. Doesn't make it easy but it is good. My only response to these people is, "How do I know this is not exactly what I need?" Hindsight has always taught me that God is much better at this life than me, and I signed up for this journey. Suffering has an amazing purifying affect, even when I'm blind to the reason. It has an amazing ability to get to the root of the problem, even when I can't see. But I can't count anymore how many times I've turned back and said, "Okay Father, I now get it." I would also ask, "Are you willing to believe differently after God restores me through this process, when He shows up in the end?" 1 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 19, 2007
Votes: +0 
Last year we were interviewed for a radio program about how we coped when our daughter was killed in '05. We were asked about how our faith had remained when God had allowed such a thing to happen to us. My wife said something very perceptive "we had faith in God when terrible things happened to other people - why should we not have faith still if they happen to us".
It seems to me that faith which depends on our circumstances and us doing well is a falsehood and reduces God to a celestial slot machine that we feed as long as we're winning. If we cannot walk through difficult times with our God then we might as well just 'eat, drink and be merry' because God isn't real for us. We're not super-faithful Christians. My mother in law has cancer and was admitted to hospital yesterday (Wed 18th) because her digestive system is failing. My wife had been depressed over her condition and also the strain of helping to move my own frail mother to be closer to us. If all we had was what was around us then I'm sure we'd have given up long ago, but as it is, we know God has a plan through it all, and knowing Him enables us to keep going where otherwise we'd fall apart. 3 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 19, 2007
Votes: +0 
Maybe I'm taking their question wrong, but... if it's there because good things happen, and gone because bad things happen, it's not really belief. Apparently, you (not YOU btw, but the questioner) believes God is there. They just simply don't like Him because bad stuff happens.
I've always imagined the situation to be much more like a janitors job. He makes something clean, people come in and mess it up. He continues cleaning. Just because the grounds aren't spotless doesn't mean there's no janitor. They just aren't imagining what it would look like without anyone cleaning at all. 4 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 19, 2007
Votes: +0 
There's that old saying isn't there - "I said follow me, but I didn't say it was going to be easy."
How can I still be a believer when things are tough? Simply because he is God. However angry I have been in the past he is still there. I've had too many good times with him, and I have seen him bring me through the bad times. Sometimes, like you, I have lots of questions and no answers. Sometimes I am literally clinging on by my finger tips. I'm not sure why there is suffering - again more questions. 5 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 19, 2007
Votes: +0 
Jonathan Brink,
I really like your final question about whether someone would be willing to believe after God shows in the end. But I struggle with the fact that sometimes things don't work out in the end. Sometimes someone's child dies and there's no getting them back; sometimes people try their best to seek God, only to have everything collapse. I think your last question is very fair. But I think its also fair of others to see things go wrong--sometimes permanently wrong--and question where God is in that. 6 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 19, 2007
Votes: +0
Suzy,
Thanks for the book recommendation. Is there anything further you could share about what you found meaningful in the book? 7 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 19, 2007
Votes: +0
Toni,
That is a great thought from your wife. I'm sorry to hear about her mother. I agree with you that we need to stick by God through the good times and bad. I also really empathize with those who feel like their grip on God is weakening with one blow after another. Of course God doesn't let go of them, but sometimes it "feels" that way. 8 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 19, 2007
Votes: +0 
There's that thing common in Christian circles that suggests God never burdens someone with more than they can handle. I think it is said as a kind of encouragement. But I've seen it backfire in a big way when people who were suffering under burden after burden ask if God, who could supposedly read their hearts like a book really knew what they could handle because they felt he was WAY off base... those thoughts and comments usually prefacing a departure from the Christian faith.
Mind you, I've also known people turn their back on the Christian faith after those kinds of experiences, only to return later with new insights and strengths... almost as if God felt they needed to go through the experience of turning away for a season. Prodigal son, perhaps. BB Mike 9 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 19, 2007
Votes: +0
John,
Your "permanently wrong" approach assumes that nothing good comes out of terribly wrong stuff. The temptation is to believe that. We don't like when stuff doesn't work our way. Yet how often do we continue looking after the bad stuff. Hopefully we do so that we can see fully. My mom died of heart failure two years ago (we've all got our stuff that ends wrong) and her funeral became one of the most defining moments of my life. But my learning could not have come (presumably) without that moment. It was the moment to wake me up to the stuff I was missing about love, forgiveness and the journey of faith. I love what C.S. Lewis says about what we will say when we get to heaven and have full awareness. He says our first words will be, "Ooooooooh. Oooooh." as when someone gets it. A friend of mine enlightened me to the sometimes hidden meaning of Job. What Job really wanted was just for his friends to sit with him. He didn't want solutions. He just wanted a friend, so he could know that he wasn't alone. What I would offer is one of our greatest capacities as followers of Jesus is simply to sit with those who don't believe and love on them in their darkest hours. Serve them with compassion and abandon. Not with words but with actions. Maybe the dark hours are the moments when love becomes most clear. And aren't we all really just looking for love? 10 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 19, 2007
Votes: +0 
That question always leaves me flummoxed. Does it make life easier NOT to be a Jesus follower? Do bad things not happen to people who DON'T follow the Way?
11 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 19, 2007
Votes: +0 
# How would you react to someone who posed the above questions to you?
well i used to have all the answers. but at that time in my life/faith i was suppressing feelings of disappointment and disillusionment by layering on one theological/pastoral "answer" after another. some of the comments above contain those same "answers" some of which can be summed up in "it works out in the end" and so on. now, i am not saying that the folks making the above comments are suppressing anything, that is just were i was. but when my strength gave and that wall of theologically correct answers crumbled under its own weight i began, i think, to see clearly (or clearer) for the first time. so how do i answer now? i simply reply that i am ass confused and confounded as anybody else. i tell them that all the bad s*** that goes down around here pisses me off too and that in the moments when i believe there is a god and that god is one of the Christian versions i am pissed at her/him. when i don't believe that stuff i don't find i need to reply. # Why do you think God allows so much evil and suffering? pfft. that is a loaded question. i dono, god is either all powerful and all good and we just don't get how anything works and our definitions of evil are wrong and maybe Calvin had it right that we deserve all the bad stuff. but that isn't a popular answer cause it is offensive. or god is all powerful but not all good. if that is the case, well, we are all F******. or god is not all powerful but has good intentions. in that case i don't want anything to do with him. he isn't much better at running the universe than you or i. i ain't worshiping that dude. or god is not all powerful and not all good. again, what an a**hole. # Any other thoughts on this? Reactions? hmm, well currently i am leaning towards agnosticism. 12 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 19, 2007
Votes: +0 
in the immortal words of a bumper sticker immortalised by Forrest Gump "Shit happens"... amen and amen- the key to hang in there and like Jacob we may walk away limping- but we will be blessed beyond measure!!!
 13 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 19, 2007
Votes: +0
soory for multiple copies
S  14 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 19, 2007
Votes: +0
flyawaynet,
Your janitor picture was one of the most helpful pictures of this problem I've ever heard. Thanks. 15 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 19, 2007
Votes: +0
Lyn,
I really relate to what you say. Thanks for sharing. 16 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 19, 2007
Votes: +0
Mike/Cern,
Yeah, its those types of experiences that Christians need to take more seriously. When your face is buried in the mud and you can't breath, trite answers don't help. Actually, it's hard to even hear. 17 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 19, 2007
Votes: +0
Jonathan,
I wouldn't say that nothing good comes out of terribly wrong. But I would say that for those in the midst of it that it often feels that way. What I strongly agree with is your thoughts on caring for people in grief. Especially when you say, "What I would offer is one of our greatest capacities as followers of Jesus is simply to sit with those who don't believe and love on them in their darkest hours. Serve them with compassion and abandon. Not with words but with actions. Maybe the dark hours are the moments when love becomes most clear. And aren't we all really just looking for love?" Great thoughts! 18 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 19, 2007
Votes: +0 
Why would they assume that you can't question the Lord?
I think part of the maturing factor in relating to God comes when we feel we can question him without going through a crisis of faith. The Psalmist did it all the time. I think questioning God is fine. I think we can even disagree with him. The key is to trust in spite of all the questions, disagreements, and maybe even doubts. It sounds like you're doing that, and that's awesome. 19 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 19, 2007
Votes: +0 
I know this isn't a perfect analogy but I think football is a way to explain this. The coach of a football team prepares the players, shows them the game plan, and offers up the plays. However, when the team takes the field, each player makes their own decisions. Do I tackle this guy or not? Do I throw to this guy or to that guy? Can I duck the tackle or will I get slammed from behind?
The coach is not responsible for his players' decisions (or for the other team's). But the players still look to the coach for guidance and inspiration - and if he's a good coach, they believe in him even if the team sometimes loses. God is our coach and sometimes we get tackled but sometimes we make it to the endzone. We still believe in him and we still follow him even when we lose. 20 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 20, 2007
Votes: +0 
Johnathan Brink = Spot on!
21 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 20, 2007
Votes: +0
Makeesha,
I always wanted to say "flummoxed" in a sentence, and now I've been able to accomplish this thanks to you I think that people who say things like this think that we should believe things will be better for us because of our beliefs. 22 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 20, 2007
Votes: +0
"But I struggle with the fact that sometimes things don't work out in the end. Sometimes someone's child dies and there's no getting them back; sometimes people try their best to seek God, only to have everything collapse."
It's important to remember that 'the end' everything works out in is NOT this life. Otherwise much terrible suffering makes no sense at all. "There's that thing common in Christian circles that suggests God never burdens someone with more than they can handle." Mike/Cern - I have (still) a good friend who ended up in hospital with clinical depression as a result of fundamentally being loaded with way more than she could handle. I don't think it was God *specifically* that loaded her, but He certainly permitted her to arrive in that situation. I quite agree that in the context of suffering this is certainly not true. I believe however that this was a reference to sin, and that there would always be a way out for us. A little scriptural slippage? 23 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 20, 2007
Votes: +0 
John - several thoughts.
(1) I'm all too aware of my own sinfulness and rebellion, of stuff I know I do wrong that causes hurt etc. Now if I won't let God in to stop me from doing this then why should I expect or even demand that he stop everyone else etc? (2) we treat life like some big experiment in a science lab, where we need to know all causes and effects, where everything needs a reason. The issue of evil and suffering changes when we move away from this reductionist / enlightenment position and start to see life as a drama and restore the concpet of mystery. I believe it was Buddha who said "life is suffering" - for me this ties in with Jesus' teachings, but Jesus adds, "and I am with you". (3)we're all in a battle. Because Jesus confronted "the powers" (both natural politics / religious powres and spiritual powers) the powers joined together to kill him. Why shoudl I expect any better treatment than the guy I claim to follow? Yet we have hope, we know Jesus has risen so we too look for our own resurrection. 24 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 20, 2007
Votes: +0 
When considering something good coming out of something bad I like to consider two biblical examples, one OT and one NT. The OT is the story of Joseph. How do you think he felt when his brothers hated him, sold him into slavery, was falsely accused of rape, and thrown into a dungeon for two years? He had to be wondering what God was doing. But God did bring something very good out of the very bad - the physical salvation of a nation including his own family.
The NT example is the death of God. Possibly the very worst thing that could have ever happened (we killed God) and he brought about the very best thing that could have ever happened - the opportunity for reconciliation back to Him. This certainly doesn't bring comfort/understanding in all the bad that takes place but I do think it illustrates that He can and does bring good out of bad. A lesser known book that I would recommend is "Is God to Blame? Beyond Pat Answers to the Problem of Suffering" by Gregory Boyd. 25 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 20, 2007
Votes: +0 I believe however that this was a reference to sin, and that there would always be a way out for us. A little scriptural slippage? Cool. I wouldn't know where to look for that in scripture though. Any suggestions? BB Mike 26 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 20, 2007
Votes: +0
1 Corinthians 10:12-14 (NIV)
12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall! 13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it. Courtesy of www.biblegateway.com. They have a brilliant search engine that lets you use the site like a concordance, but with many versions. I'd remembered it was in Corinthians somewhere, but I'm not great at remembering specific verses down to the chapter and verse numbers. 27 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 20, 2007
Votes: +0 
Yeah Toni, I was wondering if someone would mention this.
The saying that Christians bat around, "God will not give you more than you can bear," is not scriptural. As such, it is nothing more than a platitude that lacks real comfort or any power in the midst of a hard circumstance. No where does the Word indicate that God protects us from the most difficult circumstances. The saying in question seems to be a synthesis of a hope that God is good (which I believe He is) and I Cor. 10:13 which says that God will not allow someone to be tempted beyond what they are able to bear. In the midst of a trial, we can resist the temptation to believe that God is not good (and it is there for most of us) because such temptation is not more than we can bear. However, we are not automatically guaranteed that circumstances themselves will not feel overwhelming. There is a significant difference there. However, I believe that one can find the comfort one needs, somehow or someway, in the middle of the hard circumstance. I remember once at age 36 when two years after my father's death I was overwhelmed by grief. For two weeks I experienced an inexplicable, suffocating heaviness that nearly incapacitated me from participating in everyday life. I would get home from work and apologize to my wife and leave the family environment. I had nothing to offer anyone. I could not converse beyond my responsibilities at work. I had to fight the urge to wail openly when colleagues would speak to me. At work, I would crawl under my desk in the dark in any moment I could be alone and listen repeatedly to some Christian song I had on tape. Now I cannot even remember the title, but in that song in the dark, I thrust my soul into the everlasting God and quietly sobbed. I was finally able to put together an explanation for myself about what I was going through--it related to my dad, but that is not the point here. God says there is no temptation to sin so great that we must succomb to it, that is all. Life itself is sometimes crushing. I believe God comforts us, strengthens us, carries us, but ultimately we must realize our weakness. Suffering as a result of sin is our own fault. Suffering because God has cut us off from false supports in the lives we have built is necessary to deepen our walk. Suffering because we have made a stand for Jesus and the spirit of the anti-Christ openly opposes us is to be expected, and we have been told in scripture such is our lot as His followers. Suffering because life throws us really heavy stuff to carry is about finding the comfort and support in Him which results from faith in Him. To have the falsehood of our religion exposed through pain is a blessing because we must find our faith in Him to overcome it. When our faith is secure, we need not defend God; that we have a supernatural source is evident to all. 28 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 20, 2007
Votes: +0
Mike,
Thanks for the honest, raw, answer as always. 29 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 21, 2007
Votes: +0
Sally,
Forest Gump: Theologian 30 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 21, 2007
Votes: +0
Nick,
Thanks for your thoughts. I'm on the same page as you with this. Scripture is comfortable with questioning and doubt, we should be too. 31 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 21, 2007
Votes: +0
Juelie,
Helpful analogy. The only thing I'd add is that God sometimes carries the ball for us even when we drop it. 32 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 21, 2007
Votes: +0 
Sorry didn't have much time before but really wanted to mention the book.
Ok, The Shack was written by someone who has been through terrible things, and had similar thoughts. He was writing a story for his children to help them understand him and his faith more, and it turned into this amazing book. Trying to explain the story is hard for me. I'll post the blurb instead: Mackenzie Allen Philips’ youngest daughter, Missy, has been abducted during a family vacation and evidence that she may have been brutally murdered is found in an abandoned shack deep in the Oregon wilderness. Four years later in the midst of his Great Sadness, Mack receives a suspicious note, apparently from God, inviting him back to that shack for a weekend. Against his better judgement he arrives at the shack on a wintry afternoon and walks back into his darkest nightmare. What he finds there will change Mack’s world forever. In a world where religion seems to grow increasingly irrelevant The Shack wrestles with the timeless question, “Where is God in a world so filled with unspeakable pain?” The answers Mack gets will astound you and perhaps transform you as much as it did him. You’ll want everyone you know to read this book! It's a very painful book, makes you cry and cry, but at the same time it really does make you feel so much better. I really think it does have the power to transform, and the last sentence of the blurb is oh so true - I'm longing for the whole wide world to read it!! 33 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 21, 2007
Votes: +0 
1. with honesty and very similar to your reply. i would admit my many questions and doubts at time. then i would just as readily admit that in my experience i cannot see any other way than a relationship with God, even when it 'appears' to not serve me well.
2. i think God has proven his commitment to partner with humanity for the restoration and reconciliation of all creation. i think the reason why there is so much evil and suffering in this world is because of lack of human participation in that partnership, not because of a flaw in God. (shoot down the clock designer image and highlight that God is so committed to using humanity to restore creation that he sent his son to become one so he could partner with him as human). 3. i think people need to decide for themselves...from their own life experiences and encounters with Jesus. they don't need me to convince them of God and his love (not through my words anyway). they need me to convince them through my love actions... partnering with God in their lives. this compels me to be completely honest, authentic, when answering their questions about my doubts or concerns regarding God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. i like your transparent answers to the questions john. brad 34 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 21, 2007
Votes: +0 Courtesy of www.biblegateway.com. They have a brilliant search engine that lets you use the site like a concordance, but with many versions. I'd remembered it was in Corinthians somewhere, but I'm not great at remembering specific verses down to the chapter and verse numbers. Hi Toni, Bible gateway is a great resource. Thanks for the chapter and verse pointer. BB Mike 35 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 21, 2007
Votes: +0 
Tomorrow I'm going to teach from Genesis 22 for the adult Sunday School class. Once, in the midst of the most chaotic time in my life, I preached to the same congregation from this chapter. Abraham is called upon to offer his son, Isaac, the son of the promise, on a distant mountain top.
I believe in that God, the God of Abraham. This God took me to a wind-swept mountain top too. And this God does not need me to defend Him. 36 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 21, 2007
Votes: +0 
There have been a few times in my life when I have had to deal with circumstances that were simply devistating and soul-killing. During these times I have often had to hear from people who either insist that my "faith" is what has gotten me through the crisis, or who marvel that I continue to have any faith at all.
"Faith" for me, really wasn't the issue, though. What changed was what I had faith in. My understanding of God has changed radically as a result of enduring suffering, and the God I believe in now is neither as logical, rational, or "nice" as the one that I developed faith in as a younger, more naive, person. 37 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 22, 2007
Votes: +0 
Hello
I’m a devout Muslim, who has come across your blog and I’m impressed with it. My take on your question comes from an Islamic perspective. In the Qur’an, God tells us that (paraphrasing in English) “ He created life and death as a test to see those who are best in deed.” Also it states, “ o you think that you will be left to say you believe and not be tested.” We also have an oral tradition attributed to Jesus (peace and blessing be upon him) which states, “ The life of this world is a bridge, so don’t build your house on it. This all points, to the transitory nature of this worldly life which has been filled with trials and tribulation, to test out belief, and our sincerity. Our painful trials and tribulations resonate the most in our lives, however, there are also trails and tribulations that we find pleasant and I think these are the most seductive and dangerous, in the form of abundance of money, a beautiful women, etc… We also have an oral tradition related to Muhammad (peace and blessing be upon him) which implies “the depth of our trials are commensurate with the depth of our faith, and no one has been tried more than the Prophets (peace be upon them). “ Lastly, the Qur’an stated, that “Corruption has appeared in the land and the sea because of what the hands of men have earned, that they he (God) may give them a taste of some their deeds, in order that they may turn back.” Ultimately, such trials and tribulations are designed to make us repent. 38 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 27, 2007
Votes: +0
Hey Hakim! Wonderful to have a muslim posting here. I'm sure John will feel the same.
We also have an oral tradition related to Muhammad (peace and blessing be upon him) which implies “the depth of our trials are commensurate with the depth of our faith, and no one has been tried more than the Prophets (peace be upon them). “ I wonder if that has always been your experience in seeing other muslims being tried. I know of a number of people from various faith walks who have felt they have been tried beyond what their faith could bear and have subsequently left their faith.  BB Mike 39 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 27, 2007
Votes: +0
I’m sure that exist amongst Muslims, but I would estimate the numbers as being negligible of the Muslims that leave the faith due to tribulations.
I don’t think, I know a single Muslim, who left the religion for that reason. However, its more prevalent for Muslims, to maintain their belief in Islam, but find that doing the actions that are incumbent upon Muslims too much, and therefore don’t. I mean right now, if you look around the world, everywhere that there are a good percentage of Muslims there is trouble from war, natural disasters, oppression under tyranny, tribulation upon tribulation and yet I don’t recall ever hearing a single Muslim ask, why has God done this to us. In fact, I could say the tribulations have lead a portion of Muslim to become even more fanatical or extreme in their religion. So on this side of the coin, the extremist retains their faith but their actions exceed the limits that God has set, thereby leaving Islam in that way. What is even more interesting is despite all of this, it continually reported, here in the West that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the West. I think the numbers are negligible because in the Qur’an, God tells us, that he won’t burden a person more than they could bear and after much hardship there is ease. Lastly, there in an oral tradition related to fact that every pain and tribulation, we experience is a expiation for our sins in this world, rather then the next. Thank you for the question. 40 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 27, 2007
Votes: +0
I’m sure that exist amongst Muslims, but I would estimate the numbers as being negligible of the Muslims that leave the faith due to tribulations.
I don’t think, I know a single Muslim, who left the religion for that reason. However, its more prevalent for Muslims, to maintain their belief in Islam, but find that doing the actions that are incumbent upon Muslims too much, and therefore don’t. I mean right now, if you look around the world, everywhere that there are a good percentage of Muslims there is trouble from war, natural disasters, oppression under tyranny, tribulation upon tribulation and yet I don’t recall ever hearing a single Muslim ask, why has God done this to us. In fact, I could say the tribulations have lead a portion of Muslim to become even more fanatical or extreme in their religion. So on this side of the coin, the extremist retains their faith but their actions exceed the limits that God has set, thereby leaving Islam in that way. What is even more interesting is despite all of this, it continually reported, here in the West that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the West. I think the numbers are negligible because in the Qur’an, God tells us, that he won’t burden a person more than they could bear and after much hardship there is ease. Lastly, there in an oral tradition related to fact that every pain and tribulation, we experience is a expiation for our sins in this world, rather then the next. Thank you for the question. 41 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 27, 2007
Votes: +0
Hakim,
Welcome. Thank you for contributing your thought provoking thoughts on this topic. It is a pleasure to better understand how a Muslim thinks through pain and suffering. 42 report abuse
vote down
vote up
July 28, 2007
Votes: +0 Write comment
|
TrackBack URI for this entry
Subscribe to this comment's feed
| Next > |
|---|
