| Church Affiliation |
| Thursday, 01 May 2008 | |
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I'm often asked what church denomination I'm a part of. My typical answer is something like:
I have strong sympathies with the emerging-missional movement. But at the end of the day I see myself as a Jesus-follower who is part of the universal church. I've always been happy to serve in whatever setting God wants me to. But I've certainly felt more comfortable in some settings than others. Tell me more about yourself:
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I come from a similar background. Raised in a catholic family, attended assemblies of god elementary school, and was baptised in a baptist church. I like the idea of a universal church. I have met people who are so anti this very thought. Makes me wonder what they are afraid of. If God had wanted there to be only one church/religion...There would be. I think there is a lot to learn and gain from knowing different faiths.
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May 01, 2008
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Jane,
Thanks for commenting. I think Christians have been so focused on the idea of the local church, which has so much diversity, that we have lost track of the universal church which is made up of Christians of all times, places, and denominations. 2 report abuse
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May 01, 2008
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I'm currently at an Assemblies of God home missions church plant. (A complex way of saying it's a new church.)
I grew up Christian, so I went to the churches Mom went to. We went to two "community" churches that were either unaffiliated or didn't make much of their affiliation—though I do remember they were Fundamentalist and Dispensationalist. We went to two different Evangelical Free Churches. We went to a Presbyterian Church. By the time of my teenage years, we were at an EFC... which we left because they had taught us to be Fundamentalist, but at the time they just weren't being Fundamentalist enough. From there I went, of all places, to an Assemblies of God church. I've gone to Assemblies churches since... well, except for two years where I lived in Nevada County. There, I went to a non-denominational church. (I tried a few other churches, but they were all off-putting in one way or another.) But after I moved away, I've been at Assemblies churches. Why Assemblies of God? It's not for a lack of looking at other churches, and not because I disapprove of other theologies. I just feel I'm free to minister here more than I am elsewhere. Having tried non-denominational churches, I would say that two things about many of those churches really bother me. (1) Frequently the reason they're not affiliated with other churches is because they're trying to escape accountability. Their leaders are in some way unqualified—they abuse the scriptures, or their lives are in rebellion toward God and others (like their previous denominations, who tried to discipline them). Or their attitudes are self-centered rather than God-centered. ("How come no one's recognized my obvious talents? That's it; I'm starting my own church. Who's with me?") They feel the denominations are corrupt or overbearing or more interested in self-perpetuation than Jesus. (To be fair, lots of them are.) They're so picky about theology that they think any deviation from their own personal interpretation of the scriptures means you're allowing yourself to be led astray by Satan itself. Any of these reasons will do, and in order to justify their independence, they'll adopt a few more of these reasons and add a little extra anti-denominational rhetoric. "Jesus started a Church, not a denomination." (2) Frequently, in order to perpetuate their disconnectedness, they isolate themselves. They preach withdrawal from the world. They have no connection to other area churches. They have no ministry to their home community—all their ministries are out of the area, to other cities or countries. Sometimes no one in their hometown even knows they exist. Or they go to the other extreme and do lots of good works, and preach that God wants people to be happy and wealthy and at peace... but forget to preach the gospel. But to be fair, a lot of them aren't like this. Most of my family attends a non-denom, which sees their lack of affiliation as something that frees them up to work with other churches of different denominations within the same city. It's true that too many denominations are restrictive or particular that way. None of us should be. The strengths of a denomination come from how much the ideal denomination/congregation relationship looks like the ideal church/believer relationship. Does the D support the C? Does it provide resources, encourage growth, uplift, strengthen, pray for its constituents, and empower them to minister effectively? Or does it seek to perpetuate itself, and continually demand money and participation? When denominations behave badly, I say the congregations should try to reform them... but should ultimately feel feel free to disconnect. But only to reconnect with another denomination or oversight body. Just as there should be no Lone Ranger Christians, there should be no go-it-alone churches. If churches did this more often, you'd see a lot of denominations behave themselves rather than turn into bureaucracies or out-of-touch dictatorships. (Like some churches in the news.) 3 report abuse
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May 01, 2008
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I'm currently "homeless" as far as churches go, and it's not fun. I used to go to a non-denominational church, but it turned out to uphold false teachings. I went to a presbyterian "pca" church for a couple months. I liked the messages, but I knew it wasn't the place for me. I've been going to a new church the past couple of weeks, but I'm not sure about it. Please pray for me.
How do you know when it's the right church to join? 4 report abuse
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May 01, 2008
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K. W. Leslie,
It sounds like we've had different experiences. I haven't seen that being a part of a denomination makes anyone more accountable. Being part of a denomination means that there will likely be more control, but this doesn't necessarily equal healthy accountability. For me, strengths of denominations have been the (rare in many denominations) times when local churches and denominations have worked together for kingdom purposes. So far, I have felt the most freedom working with Australian Baptists. There was some support there when problems arose, but that's about it. 5 report abuse
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May 02, 2008
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Hi Laura,
Thanks for commenting for the first time. I think you can know when a church is right to join when you're able to give and receive to/from the body of Christ. I find that too often people look only at what they can receive from a church ("Am I being fed?"), whereas they should equally be asking what they can give ("How can I serve others?"). Maybe others have some suggestions to how you know when its the right church as well..... 6 report abuse
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May 02, 2008
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I resonate with your experience. I was raised Evangelical Covenant, attended a Mennonite School. I was part of a Pentecostal youth group and occasionally attend Roman Catholic Mass with my grandmother. I am now serving in YWAM, part of which includes partnering to plant an inner city Mennonite church that is shaped by Franciscan spirituality. I'm blissfully and wonderfully confused!
Peace, Jamie 7 report abuse
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May 02, 2008
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John,
I agree with your comment to Laura about giving and receiving. However, Biblically sound preaching/teaching/outreach is also very important. We should all be critical thinkers and evaluate what is being taught against the Word of God. This does not mean I support each person having their own interpretation of the Bible, but seeing if the teacher is adequately able to back up what they say with scripture. I truly believe if there is sound teaching and corresponding spiritual growth, a church will thrive and draw others to it as a natural response to healthy spirituality. Many people look for a sense of belonging, a place to fit it, which in itself is not a bad thing. However, 'feel good' churches are not always scriptually sound. 8 report abuse
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May 02, 2008
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Hey John, great post!
I could consider myself an Angobaptistevanagelicostal......  Its interesting, as a missionary overseas, the names on our doors fade very quickly, however it seems here in the homeland we love to be defined by everything else but Christ and love. Why is that?? Maybe we're too bored in our pews?? and should be out living our faith not pretending to learn it..... ouch that came out a little harsh. I travel to heaps of churches nowadays with an event called The GO Concert - we help inspire people to live missional lives, but the thing I find is, no matter what denomination or theological beliefs we prefer - we are all called to work together in the 'mission' of Matthew 28. ps. I'm an Aussie - Hope you had fun in my homeland!  9 report abuse
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May 02, 2008
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My journey has involved a few different churches, but I belong to a local United Methodist church. I think the evolution of denominations is a natural consequence of the way we interpret scripture as well as tradition. On the down side, it can lead to a lot of needless conflict.
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May 02, 2008
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Hi John - looking at the title of the post in my feeder, I don't think I could click fast enough. I am so fascinated by the denominational conversation.
I grew up with no God or religion in my home (ok, God was there, my parents didn't acknowledge it). My first church was a charismatic Christian church at the age of 11. Quickly I learned my parents were not OK with this kind of church, they told me I could go back if I went to all the other churches in town. So I tried the Catholic, Baptist, 3 different varieties of Lutherans (because where I come from you can't swing a stick without hitting a Lutheran church), and an Assemblies of God church. Finally, I landed at the church where my best friend went. Which for me says at least in the beginning it was about relationships. I still think it means a great deal to me in deciding where or how to find a church (,Laura). The idea of belonging before belief resonates with me. Its funny, I feel a deep sense of belonging to my church and denomination (the Episcopal Church). I recently have questioned the structures relevance, and often think the systems are just not able to move at the pace of the Holy Spirit. Often it can seem frustrating and clunky - the big church body. However, I love feeling and knowing that despite our theological differences, we are one expression, one part of the body of Christ, and the denomination that I am a part of I feel has a particular role and voice in the public square and Kingdom of God. Thanks again John, can't wait to read others too. 11 report abuse
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May 03, 2008
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I love reading where people come from and where they stand on this topic of denominations. My background is Episcopal and Methodist with a charismatic backbone. I am now part of a church family that is non-denominational. We like to call ourselves interdenominational because we aspire to appreciate and even acquire spiritual wealth from the diverse universal body of Christ.
I think it's good to be a part of a denomination and to lean towards those doctrinal preferences but I would argue that there should be an ecumenical spirit among anybody who calls themselves christian. What I mean by that is that there should be a willingness to let go of what McLaren calls "doctrinal distinctions"; those secondary doctrines beyond the core beliefs that are unique to each denomination. Especially in circumstances where God calls us to come together. 12 report abuse
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May 03, 2008
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I belong to a local church that is part of the Disciples of Christ (Christian Church) denomination... and boy, is that a mouthful.
The strength of the denomination is the unity of believers. To be a member, we profess "no creed but Christ." Theoretically, you could be Roman Catholic, Pentecostal, or an officer in the Salvation Army and still attend a DOC church. Interestingly enough, our strength is also our weakness. Because the denomination is non-doctrinal, we put an emphasis on the responsibility of our members to study and interpret the scriptures on their own. Because of this, there isn't much education that takes place on Sunday morning. The general message seems to be "love one another." While that is important, I think the Bible offers much more than that. 13 report abuse
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May 03, 2008
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John,
1. My local church is the Orthodox Archbishopric of Johannesburg and Pretoria. 2. The Orthodox Church doesn't believe in "denominations", but I suppose the nearest equivalent is that our local church is part of the Patriarchate of Alexandria and All Africa, founded by St Mark the Evangelist in AD 42. 3. see 2. For what its worth, my parents were agnostic/atheist, and I never went to church or Sunday school as a child. The first church service I attended was an Anglican Christmas one that I went to with a friend at the age of 11. I was led to Christ by a school teacher a couple of years later, at a Methodist School, but joined the Anglican Church on leaving school, and studied theology at university. I attended a course on Orthodox theology and worship for non-Orthodox theological students in Switzerland and Paris, and thought it made much more sense than Western theology, which at that time (40 years ago!) was split between pietists and social activists who were forever arguing with each other. Eventually I joined the Orthodox Church. 14 report abuse
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May 03, 2008
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Jamie,
It's nice to not be the only confused one If you don't mind sharing, what was your experience in Evangelical Covenant? I've met a lot of good people involved with them.15 report abuse
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May 04, 2008
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Hi Elaine,
I completely agree that biblically sound preaching, teaching, and outreach is essential. For me this fits in the 'receiving' end of what people should look for in a local church. My gripe is that this is the starting and ending point for most Christians I come across today. I think influenced by our individualist, consumer focused culture, we 'shop' at different churches until we find which one we want to 'buy' into. If they no longer meet our consumer desires, we quickly move on to the next 'shop' that does. This is a little more of the background to my thoughts that we need to give and receive to the body of Christ. 16 report abuse
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May 04, 2008
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Lucas Parry,
Thanks for commenting for the first time. I'm with you on the need to focus on the mission of Matthew 28 regardless of denominational tags. I've found that some of my most meaningful times serving with others has been with teams of people from different countries and denominational backgrounds. By the way, I check out your site and a little of what you're doing. Looks great. How long have you been traveling? 17 report abuse
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May 04, 2008
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Kievas Fargo,
I think the way we interpret Scripture and tradition has a lot to do with why there is so many denominations too. I wonder why it doesn't involve differences in praxis as much as Scripture though? 18 report abuse
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May 04, 2008
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Rachel,
Glad you like this topic I think you're right about most people choosing, at least initially, because of relationships. What is it that gives you a deep sense of belonging where you are currently? Is it relationships only? Or more too? 19 report abuse
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May 04, 2008
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Well my local church is Australian Baptist. It's not a perfect fit but it's not a bad one either. And I'm growing into it more as time goes on.
In my journey I have also been a member of a Catholic and a Sydney Anglican church, have tasted some Pentecostal services along the way, and theology wise am deeply indebted to the Orthodox and Mennonites amongst others so its a pretty eclectic mix. I suppose where I am now is that I have a deeper appreciation of tradition than I used to but still see many pros and cons when it comes to denominationalism. One of the pros is the accountability it provides, one of the cons is the devision within the body of Christ that it can sometimes foster and parochialism when it comes to other traditions. I suppose I would advocate an "open" attitude to tradition; one where commitment and accountability is appreciated as a virtue but so is listening and humility towards other traditions. 20 report abuse
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May 04, 2008
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John,
If I had to break down the reason for going to church it would be to find spiritual education. If I were to be looking for a Biblically sound education, the need for critical thinking would enter the picture. This, however, might mostly be relevant to a new or non-believer. Giving for these persons would come from healthy spiritual growth as a natural outpouring of the Love of Christ in their lives. The believer looking for a church would be striving for a place to enter into corporate worship first, and then education. Using the organized church as a means to give is (I believe) a secondary benefit. There are so many ways and means by which to reach out to others, believers or not. I agree that our culture has created the ultimate church hopper that will focus on what they can get out of something, whether it be social or even financial networking. However, I want to blame this on the lack of truly sound and fervent teaching of the truth in the Word. (it is always easier to blame it on the 'others'). I suppose it would help to know exactly what you mean by giving. 21 report abuse
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May 04, 2008
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I attend a local church and it's an interesting question whether I "belong" or not. It's a non-denominational church, like the last one we attended (where we did "belong"). I was raised nominally Catholic, grew through the Baptist church, attended an Anglican church for a while and have some pretty big Mennonite influences.
For me denoms are really brands - they are a way of navigating the question of attending, belonging and finding one's place in the faith. I don't place much store in the accountability argument either. It's a good idea, but my experience is that it doesn't work out too well in practice. 22 report abuse
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May 04, 2008
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Hi John, I got saved in a Baptist Church 20 years ago, spent time in a Church of Christ, then met my wife and moved to an Apostolic Church, then Pastored a Church of Christ. Now looking at starting a non-denominational house church. I am a bit like you where I feel part of the universal church and have a leaning towards the simple model of house church. It just seems to be where God is leading me.
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May 05, 2008
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Carl Nystedt,
I strongly resonate with what you say about there needing to be a willingness among believers to allow for secondary doctrinal distinctives. I think its very sad that core Christian doctrines and practices aren't enough to unite Jesus-followers everywhere. 24 report abuse
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May 05, 2008
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Jason Silverthorne,
Thanks for stopping by and sharing about the denomination you're a part of. I'm really interested to know more about St Pixels if you have any feedback as well. The idea of an 'internet church' has captured my attention for quite some time. 25 report abuse
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May 05, 2008
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Steve Hayes,
Thanks for sharing more of your personal journey. I'm embarrassed to say I've still never experienced an Orthodox service. I need to. If the Orthodox Church doesn't believe in denominations, how does it view Catholics and Protestants, as well as, say, Presbyterians and Anglicans? 26 report abuse
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May 05, 2008
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Matt Stone,
Thanks for sharing Matt. For me, I think that I still resonate most with Australian Baptists, though I'd be surprised if I ever found any one denomination that I felt completely at home in. 27 report abuse
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May 05, 2008
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Hi Elaine,
On the receiving end, I see teaching and corporate worship as significant parts of what should be the norm for those who are part of a local church. But I think if this is all we receive, there will continue to be a sense of restlessness for people. I think other things such as grace, acceptance, and meaningful relationships are also very important. Yet these things are so often lacking. People--far too often--exist in local churches as shells of who they really are, often being afraid of being judged by others if they're truly transparent. On the giving end, I think people should give of their spiritual gifts, time, finances, grace, etc. 28 report abuse
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May 05, 2008
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Thanks for replying John,
I suppose my aversion to the new legalism of having to pray a certain amount each day, read the Bible a certain amount each day, witness to all the lost, etc. keeps me from supporting a giving mentality within the body (from a behavioral standpoint). The shame we carry that keeps us from being transparent slowly fades as we learn more about true grace and mercy. We also need witnesses who go before us and show us how to be transparent. Then, we know what it is like to truly belong, not because of what we do, but because of who we are and what we have gone through. I would like to see people be guided into giving ministries based on their talents and gifts rather than needs in the church. Too many (women especially) guilt themselves into doing too much and get burnt out because it is not their calling or area of gifting. Watching people find their area of calling and enjoy what they do is very exciting. The church is somewhat responsible to find areas where giving can happen, both inside and outside the body. However, to beat a dead horse, when looking for a church I believe healthy receiving comes before giving. As far as my own denominational affiliations, I was born and raised in the Church of The Nazarene, which came out of Wesleyanism, which came out of Methodism, not sure what that came out of. I was in a Baptist school from preschool through 4th grade. I stick with my denomination due to their belief in holiness and grace, and also due to being a creature of habit and comfort. A weakness of the denomination is their focus on behavior holiness rather than heartchange holiness...although they might not see it that way. Their fear of being transparent keeps them in a legalistic style of holiness rather than radical heartchange holiness. 29 report abuse
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May 05, 2008
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Well John, I am a Methodist and will soon be Rev. Sally. Coleman
I prefer ecumenical working, and always smile at a friend who labels herslef as an Episcobaptocostalist 30 report abuse
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May 05, 2008
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When people I ask me, I just tell them that I'm a mutt....or hybrid.
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May 06, 2008
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Fernando,
Thanks for sharing your background with denominations. 32 report abuse
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May 06, 2008
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Dave Quinn,
Thanks for sharing. I can relate. 33 report abuse
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May 06, 2008
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Sally,
Congratulations on the soon to be Rev! I know you've been working toward this for quite some time. 34 report abuse
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May 06, 2008
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Margaret,
I'm going to have to rip off your labels in the future 35 report abuse
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May 06, 2008
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Actually, thinking about it more, why I hang out with the Aussie Baptists has very little to do with the so called "Baptists distinctives" and much more to do with people and attitude; the unofficial distinctives. Quite simply I find them more open to missional thought and more open to disagreement on secondary matters than some of the other options I have open to me locally. My own brand of Christianity is so eclectic (influenced by evangelicals, orthodox, mystics, mennonites, etc, etc) that it is hardly Baptist, better described as a tradition of one, as self contradictory and ironic as that sounds. Really, when it comes to whom I associate with, its not peripherals like denominational distinctives that matter so much. It's whether others can look past my ideosyncracies and accept me as a brother in Christ based on core essentials. I am willing to lay my hat with any denomination that does that.
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May 06, 2008
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I find these questions rather difficult, because principle and practice diverge so widely.
For one thing, I think the whole idea of picking and choosing a local church is syncretist, being dominated by the value system of a consumerist society, which I've blogged about here: Notes from underground: Putin picks a church? I believe that ideally one should be part of one's local church, and that one does not "choose" it but one is placed in it by God. Having said that, I don't live by it, but find myself part of four local churches, one of which I helped to start, and none of which is really my local church. 37 report abuse
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May 08, 2008
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My experience has been, like many commentators, pretty diverse. I was raised Catholic (Mass every Sunday and "holy day of obligation") but left that church at age 17 after studying different religions, then the Bible. I spent a year in a Presbyterian (PCUSA) church, left over the Re-Imagining Conference and a few other things I didn't like, and joined a small community church with no denominational affiliation. Early the next year, my second semester in college, I was baptized by immersion and began preaching later that year among independent Christian Churches. After a mission trip I enrolled at a Church of Christ university and got a BMin. The day after graduation I was ordained by the elders of a Christian Church. Christian Churches and a cappella Churches of Christ are part of the Stone-Campbell movement, but differ over a few things. I became a missionary in Brazil working alongside Brazilian evangelists planting a Church of Christ with partial support from Christian Churches in the US (confused yet?). After returning stateside I took a position with a Christian Church, nearly lost my faith in the aftermath of that fiasco, and now find myself in a Church of Christ again (composed of Brazilian immigrants). I wanted desperately to leave this movement entirely during my dark valley years (2005-2006) but my wife wasn't good with that. So, here I am. I think I am good with it.
When people ask what I am, I say I am a Christian. If they want details, I say I am a member of the Brazilian Church of Christ in Newark, NJ. More? It's part of the Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement, and I think of myself as missional. Then they ask was "missional" is, and that's a whole other can of worms. 38 report abuse
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May 09, 2008
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Steve, I agree church shopping has consumerist and syncretist overtones, but the question is, what if you're a convert to Christianity? There are times where choosing is legitimate. Since becoming a Christian I have only switched once, and that was prompted by us moving house and a desire to join a church near where we lived. I think it needs to be recognized that at least some of the switching that goes on is prompted by our more geographically mobile lifestyles.
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May 10, 2008
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